Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve • Hacker News Board

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#31

Post by ComputerGuru » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

qekbg wrote: post #7

Ballas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, it seems that the way the police in the US react is the consequence of interaction with the public. In places where the police have an active role in settling disputes, they also enjoy more respect from the community.

It's because you only hear about the bad things. Sure there are some crazy cops like everywhere else. But all in all I'm certain most cops are good people who just want to help citizens and remove the bad guys.

Call me when the Fraternal Order of Police stops defending bad cops that were found guilty in a court of law, declaiming the “injustice“ that took place.

These guys are supposed to uphold the law, instead they prop up murderers and accuse the justice department of railroading “innocent” cops. See “Police union blasts ‘sham trial and shameful’ Van Dyke guilty verdict” [0]

0: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2018/10/5/18460941/police-union...

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#32

Post by DanBC » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

Other places have a war on drugs, or have regulations about lemonade stands, and they don't have the pathologically awful policing that the US has.

The US is extraordinarily violent. That's where you need to start: why is violence so common and acceptable in the US?

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#33

Post by wbl » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #27

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

The militarization of the police has come primarily from the militarization of criminals. Before the Valentine's Day Massacres, criminals had better cars and weapons than the police, allowing them to fight and win against the police. Prior to the LA shooting spree, police had no way to fight a criminal armed with assault weapons and no training on how to do so without endangering the public. When I lived in St. Louis…

British police had no weapons in the 19th century while the population had ready access to firearms.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#34

Post by ComputerGuru » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

dariusj18 wrote: post #30

AS126 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems. Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

I think it's a vicious cycle. Many countries with less "crime" require less police, therefore they can be more selective about the people they hire and spend more money to train them. In the US, policing and prison are huge industries, and at a certain point there are not enough qualified individuals to go around. Now imagine the TSA and Border patrol and many other government security institutions. So many cast offs…

There aren’t enough qualified candidates because they literally are not interested in hiring people that can think for themselves rather than blindly follow orders and protocol. I know how petty this statement sounds, and you’re probably thinking “ok there, someone has an axe to grind or needs to learn some nuance,” but read this news article about what (legally!) disqualifies a candidate from being hired as an officer:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/st...

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#35

Post by thatcat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

>Crime gets reported, police investigate, criminal gets arrested, community improves from having a violent psychopath off the streets. It's a simple formula, everybody's happy

Wrong, even in simple assault cases it's possible for the victim to be charged with the assault if the person committing assault goes to the court house first and files charges. This blocks the ability of the victim to file charges and allows police to pursue them as the criminal.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#36

Post by jadell » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:27 PM UTC

rjf72 wrote: post #22

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

What you're saying is true but only in a society where you simply allow all drugs. Ideologically I am of this inclining since I don't think the government has a right to determine what people should or should not be able to put in their own body, but at the same time I also think this is a path that is detrimental for society. A few factors you don't hit on: - many drugs are addictive and this can lead to addicts tur…

It always felt weird to me that most of the rationale for policing drug use is based on preventing the crimes a user might commit while on drugs, rather than just the prosecuting the crimes they actually do commit while on drugs.

"You can't do heroin because you'll get addicted and might steal in order to fuel your addiction." "But I haven't actually stolen anything yet, so what crime has been committed?"

Are there any other cases of a victim-less activity where we preemptively arrest/prosecute people because that activity might lead to crime someday?

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#37

Post by yardie » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #27

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

The militarization of the police has come primarily from the militarization of criminals. Before the Valentine's Day Massacres, criminals had better cars and weapons than the police, allowing them to fight and win against the police. Prior to the LA shooting spree, police had no way to fight a criminal armed with assault weapons and no training on how to do so without endangering the public. When I lived in St. Louis…

So if I have this straight in St Louis when the people are protesting against police brutality, the polices solution is to be more brutal? No kidding it’s an arms race.

I’ll even bet they are using kettling to invoke a reaction from protestors. They aren’t passively responding to protestors, they are active antagonizing the public to justify their brutality.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#38

Post by thatcat » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #27

dcolkitt wrote: post #9

> Cooperating with law enforcement is often morally and practically unthinkable for the city’s most vulnerable The article has a really big blind spot, in that it fails to mention the Drug War even a single time. If you want to understand why America's police act like an occupying army- the militarization of weapons and approaches, the festering hostility between the police and the policed, the heavy-handed suspicion…

The militarization of the police has come primarily from the militarization of criminals. Before the Valentine's Day Massacres, criminals had better cars and weapons than the police, allowing them to fight and win against the police. Prior to the LA shooting spree, police had no way to fight a criminal armed with assault weapons and no training on how to do so without endangering the public. When I lived in St. Louis…

>police got tanks and other military equipment from out of state and then never let go of them

This is related to the economic dynamics of military surplus and nothing more.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#39

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

jadell wrote: post #36

rjf72 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're saying is true but only in a society where you simply allow all drugs. Ideologically I am of this inclining since I don't think the government has a right to determine what people should or should not be able to put in their own body, but at the same time I also think this is a path that is detrimental for society. A few factors you don't hit on: - many drugs are addictive and this can lead to addicts tur…

It always felt weird to me that most of the rationale for policing drug use is based on preventing the crimes a user might commit while on drugs, rather than just the prosecuting the crimes they actually do commit while on drugs. "You can't do heroin because you'll get addicted and might steal in order to fuel your addiction." "But I haven't actually stolen anything yet, so what crime has been committed?" Are there a…

Speeding. Public intoxication. Keeping an attractive nuisance.

Re: Victims are often criminals, and that is a paradox American policing can’t solve

#40

Post by romaaeterna » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

AS126 wrote: post #21

chmod775 wrote: post #2

Some (not all) of US police are uniquely unqualified to deal with this. You need to be able to show some compassion in this job and try to actually help people instead of just being a squad of gun wielding weirdos who show up to cart any suspicious people away, guns blazing. In most other countries police has an active role in settling disputes using empathy and compassion, instead of just arresting people and lockin…

Scandinavian countries in particular tend to do better in encouraging rehab and reintegration. Part of it is definitely related to cost, those countries tend to have stronger funding for their prison/reform systems. Draconic punishment is not ideal especially because criminals return to society with less prospects and are likely to turn to crime once again. That is if they return at all.

The small numbers of African-origin minorities in Scandinavian countries commit more crime per capita than those in the United States. (The same is also true internally within the Unites States when differentiating between northern and southern states). I'm afraid that Scandinavian models haven't solved the minority crime problem, but only make it worse. Sometimes far worse, as in Oslo, etc.