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Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

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Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#51

Post by pessimizer »

commandlinefan wrote: post #19
mannykannot wrote: post #4

"Don't pay too much attention to grammar." Breaking that rule is one of the ways my high school failed to teach much German to most of its students.

Back in the ‘50s or ‘60s, the U.S. government Foreign Service Institute put together a series of language learning courses that covered most of the popular languages at the time. They’re public domain and if you look hard enough, you can find them on the internet - they’re dated, but they’re still accurate (there are some here http://www.fsi-language-courses.net/ but the hosting sucks). I’ve learned Spanish and Frenc…

I'm really a fan of rote learning and hate that it gets bad-rapped. It's not intended to teach creativity, it's intended to train reflexes. If you repeat "What time will Mr. Gonzales arrive at the restaurant" 1000 times, you'll immediately know how to ask when Bill will arrive at the restaurant. And later when you learn how to say "restaurant," "arrive," or "at what time", you suddenly know a bunch of stuff. Eventually you will forget about some of the things Mr. Gonzales did, but the reflexes will still exist.

I love the endless FSI substitution drills. They feel like video games. Also the Spanish ones are done so quickly that the instructor almost trips over his own tongue.

edit: also, https://fsi-languages.yojik.eu/, well-hosted labor of love.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#52

Post by sak5sk »

As a kid I would watch english-spoken news without having any understanding of English. Then all of a sudden one day I started understanding the news anchors. It was a weird experience. Shortly after I started on a lessons book and that got me to basic english - enough to understand a tiny bit to get into an American school, but not enough to actually communicate.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#53

Post by f00zz »

notyourloops wrote: post #23

I learned how to turn a stream of nonsense (from my perspective) into words by listening to hundreds of hours of Spanish TV that I didn't understand. Spanish audio + Spanish subtitles (to figure out how to parse sound, and to map sound to writing), and then Spanish audio only (prevent reliance on reading). Surprisingly effective. Incomprehensible input appears to be quite valuable. At some point I'll try applying my…

Just bear in mind that there's a huge difference between being able to get the gist of something spoken in a foreign language and being able to convey your thoughts effectively in that language. Even after man-years of study I still sound like an idiot when trying to speak English in conference calls, even though I can understand nearly 100% of written and spoken English.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#54

Post by dlkf »

> Evening learning probably isn’t ideal for teenagers either. In a study published in 2012, Johannes Holz at the University of Freiberg, and colleagues, found that 16- and 17-year-old girls performed better on tests of factual memory if they’d learned the material at 3pm than at 9pm.

> However, another study, published in Psychological Science in 2016, suggests that evening learning can be beneficial – especially if you follow it with a decent night’s sleep, and a follow-up session the next morning.

In other words, we have directly conflicting results, because this is all a bunch of p-hacked complete fucking bullshit.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#55

Post by [deleted] »

adrianN wrote: post #37
hwj wrote: post #3

At least for Christians a good way to learn a foreign language is to read the Bible in that language, because (1) they are probably used to read a chapter or two on a daily basis (thus, the routine is already there), (2) and they probably remember some passages in their native tongue (thus, already having a translation of the text). This helped me. YMMV.

Wouldn't your learn a pretty archaic version of the language? I know that the bible passages I've read were very strange compared to everyday speech.

[deleted]

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#56

Post by loblollyboy »

notyourloops wrote: post #23

I learned how to turn a stream of nonsense (from my perspective) into words by listening to hundreds of hours of Spanish TV that I didn't understand. Spanish audio + Spanish subtitles (to figure out how to parse sound, and to map sound to writing), and then Spanish audio only (prevent reliance on reading). Surprisingly effective. Incomprehensible input appears to be quite valuable. At some point I'll try applying my…

Yeah, language is all about input. I'm learning Spanish now and it's going super fast. it's the second foreign language I've tried to learn (which I think helps, especially as they both have conjugated verbs, which is not really a thing in English), and it is much easier than the first (definitely helps).

Anyway, my method is:

0. Learn the grammar rules but don't fixate, just enough to get oriented. Occasionally review them.

1. I listened to this person who said something in Spanish then the same thing in (this case) the first foreign language I leanred, and does this over and over, occasionally adding new elements with an explanation, but mostly just brute-force repetition.

2. After a few hours of this (which is pretty boring), started watching 'Easy Spanish' videos on youtube, where they ask people questions on the street and have subs in Spanish and English. Watch these on repeat.

3. Start watching other Spanish youtubers who speak in that youtube manner (where everything is EXCITING!) - I have been watching Luisito Communica (or something like that, my Spanish is still bad).

4. (This is mostly how I learned my first language - Russian) - Listen to podcasts, but read the transcription first. For Spanish i am using radio Ambulente

5. Listen to full albums on youtube and follow along with the lyrics on genius.

I hope that soon I can just watch movies and stuff in Spanish without subs. Once you can get to the point where you can do that it's not even work to get better.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#57

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dlkf wrote: post #54

> Evening learning probably isn’t ideal for teenagers either. In a study published in 2012, Johannes Holz at the University of Freiberg, and colleagues, found that 16- and 17-year-old girls performed better on tests of factual memory if they’d learned the material at 3pm than at 9pm. > However, another study, published in Psychological Science in 2016, suggests that evening learning can be beneficial – especially if…

The follow-up feature is critical to why that 2nd study might have found different results. The delay-review step is very important for cementing learning. So no, its not all bs when different protocols have seemingly opposite results. Its not some simple question that can be answered glibly in one sentence.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#58

Post by pgcj_poster »

en-us wrote: post #42
adrianN wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't your learn a pretty archaic version of the language? I know that the bible passages I've read were very strange compared to everyday speech.

Depends on the translation you're reading. The original texts are in Hebrew and Greek so everything we read is a translation. You probably read the English KJV version, which was translated in 1611 and is thus the English of that time. More modern translations such as NIV or ESV will read more like modern everyday speech.

Actually, the language in the KJV was already out of date at the time in was written. The lofty archaisms were intentional.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#59

Post by hannasanarion »

klmr wrote: post #9
hwj wrote: post #3

At least for Christians a good way to learn a foreign language is to read the Bible in that language, because (1) they are probably used to read a chapter or two on a daily basis (thus, the routine is already there), (2) and they probably remember some passages in their native tongue (thus, already having a translation of the text). This helped me. YMMV.

This is good advice, but > they are probably used to read a chapter or two on a daily basis This sounds mental. Reading the Bible on a daily basis? I’m pretty sure that this is not the norm for the vast majority of (devout) Christians (at least in Western/Central Europe).

Even if you don't normally read daily, you probably know the meaning of most verses. Most Christians know the creation myth by heart, and are pretty familiar with the sermon on the mount and the passion stories, so they can probably pick up a lot of vocabulary from context.

Re: Unusual, evidence-based ways to get better at a new language

#60

Post by pessimizer »

astura wrote: post #49
pessimizer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that it definitely is a norm for devout Christians in the US. Bible chapters are a lot shorter than you think (if you're not familiar with the Bible), though. It's a bit of a No True Scotsman, but a lot of people who claim they're devout don't really read the Bible at all, just make public judgments about people. The actually devout people I know usually have a copy of the Bible near the bed, often with an…

I don't know about Protestant denominations but my mother grew up extremely Catholic (in the US) where every single part of life revolved around church. The family was about as devout as you could possibly get, including not practicing birth control. However, individual Bible reading wasn't practiced. In fact, individual Bible reading was actually discouraged by the nuns.

I'd bet the tradition isn't the same in Catholicism (which I have no experience with.) Protestantism is largely an outgrowth of insisting that the Bible be distributed, and in a language that the locals could understand. The Roman churches expected you to be dependent on the priest's communications of what the Bible said.
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