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Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

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Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#141

I've noticed something sneaky about Facebook on my phone. I refuse to install their apps but I do use Facebook a bit so I use it via the phone Browser (in my case, Chrome on Android). I've noticed that sometimes Facebook shows a fake 'youve got a message' icon to try and trick you into installing their messenger app. To re-produce this behaviour: (this works best if you dont get a lot of facebook messages. Also you n…

This reminds me of the way Amazon will try to get you to go to smile.amazon.com when you follow an afilliate link to amazon.com.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#142
post #132
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Facebook engineers know exactly what is going on, and I don't think they actually care. I know of founders who would need to think carefully about even interviewing someone with Facebook on their resume. And I totally get these concerns given the attitude Facebook has towards the privacy of users.

What a witch hunt. This is akin to persecuting people for their politics.

Well, engineers can have a lot of ethical responsibility. A resume that show you have no scruples doing unethical things is a fine way to gauge if someone is a suitable match.

Not much different then background checks for working in schools or what ever.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#143

I've noticed something sneaky about Facebook on my phone. I refuse to install their apps but I do use Facebook a bit so I use it via the phone Browser (in my case, Chrome on Android). I've noticed that sometimes Facebook shows a fake 'youve got a message' icon to try and trick you into installing their messenger app. To re-produce this behaviour: (this works best if you dont get a lot of facebook messages. Also you n…

You can use the “request desktop version” feature on Safari and it’ll render fbook still in mobile mode but messages will be available.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#144
post #132
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Facebook engineers know exactly what is going on, and I don't think they actually care. I know of founders who would need to think carefully about even interviewing someone with Facebook on their resume. And I totally get these concerns given the attitude Facebook has towards the privacy of users.

What a witch hunt. This is akin to persecuting people for their politics.

If a founder or person in charge of hiring views a candidate as a threat to either the business or their customers then they have every right to pass on that candidate.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#145
post #117
post #96

Am I reading this right? If WhatsApp and similar are no longer able to implement End-To-End crypto because they have to use an Apple API which supports only specific protocols, this is going to be a huge loss for users. I've considered switching to an iOS device, but stuff like this keeps me away, I'm very glad I can keep direct SIP, SSH, IMAP and XMPP connections open at all hours of the day.

Not being able to lurk in the background does not have anything to do with security. I don’t think Signal uses it and they’re generally considered secure. You can check out their source.

Signal docs say it needs Background permission :

"Without this, there may be a delay in sending and receiving messages."

https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062172-Si...

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That even today many European languages don't even have a basic dictionary. I'm not talking about the "guess the next word" feature. All I want is a dictionary that could suggest a correction to a misspelled word. Use two languages at once? No way! I guess they need to invent a new chip or something. Swipe to type? Hehe. The keyboard in itself is fast and good but it lacks features.

> Swipe to type? Hehe That's finally coming in iOS 13

Wow, Apple is ahead of its competition again.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#147
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being able to lurk in the background does not have anything to do with security. I don’t think Signal uses it and they’re generally considered secure. You can check out their source.

Signal docs say it needs Background permission : "Without this, there may be a delay in sending and receiving messages." https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062172-Si...

That doesn’t mean encryption won’t work, just that you may not get instant notification of messages.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#148
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gizmodo [0] did the original reporting on what I've mentioned, based on the work of Alan Mislove amongst others. Facebook's official statement when 2FA numbers started being made available for other purposes was: > “We outline the information we receive and use for ads in our data policy, and give people control over their ads experience including custom audiences, via their ad preferences,” said a spokesperson by em…

But a general collection of potentially unethical or unseemly behavior is not the thing that we are looking for. The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned.

> The claim was that Facebook is known to engage in that behavior while then also lying about it when questioned.

That is not how I read the parent.

Facebook asked for a phone number for 2FA (purpose).

Facebook then supplied that information for ad-targetting (definitely not what the user expects or agreed to).

There was nothing on the page when filling in the phone number that it might then be used for something other than 2FA. Just a general statement in their inhuman ToS that they can repurpose data.

That can very reasonably be construed that Facebook lied to the user - they weren't adequately informed. It certainly wouldn't be informed consent in most contexts.

---

But! If we are to take the view of whether Facebook has said one thing while actively doing another... Then the Cambridge Analytica scandal had it's own moment of that.

> “Every piece of content that you share on Facebook you own,” he [Zuckerberg] testified. ”You have complete control over who sees it and how you share it.”

> Facebook’s view that the device makers are not outsiders lets the partners go even further, The Times found: They can obtain data about a user’s Facebook friends, even those who have denied Facebook permission to share information with any third parties.

So, Facebook's official position was that you control your data, and who has access to it - but they didn't view device makers as a third party, and thus any device maker could overrule a user's choice and see their data if they wished.

As to the scale of the information a device maker can access...

> After connecting to Facebook, the BlackBerry Hub app was able to retrieve detailed data on 556 of Mr. LaForgia's friends, including relationship status, religious and political leanings and events they planned to attend. Facebook has said that it cut off third parties' access to this type of information in 2015, but that it does not consider BlackBerry a third party in this case.

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#149
For anyone interested in the technical side of the changes getting introduced in iOS 13 regarding messaging apps, the 707 session 'Advances in App Background Execution' of WWDC 2019 is really helpful: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/707/

Re: Facebook Hit by Apple’s Crackdown on Messaging Feature

#150
post #117
post #96

Am I reading this right? If WhatsApp and similar are no longer able to implement End-To-End crypto because they have to use an Apple API which supports only specific protocols, this is going to be a huge loss for users. I've considered switching to an iOS device, but stuff like this keeps me away, I'm very glad I can keep direct SIP, SSH, IMAP and XMPP connections open at all hours of the day.

Not being able to lurk in the background does not have anything to do with security. I don’t think Signal uses it and they’re generally considered secure. You can check out their source.

The current Apple VoIP APIs don't actually let apps run in the background all the time anyway. What they provide is a way to instantly remotely wake up an app, let it connect to your server in the background, do some local processing, and then create and display a notification. This is exactly what end-to-end encrypted messaging needs, but Apple is killing off the ability to use the VoIP APIs in this way in iOS 13.

Signal uses the exact same PushKit VoIP API that Facebook does, by the way - check PushRegistrationManager.swift in their source. I'm not sure if they use it for text chat as well as voice, but I assume so since there's no references to the newer API they could use in their code and they still support iOS 9 which doesn't have it (as do Facebook Messenger and WhatsApp). Edit: I think it's safe to say that Signal does this, given that Moxie Marlinspike isn't aware of any other way to do it: https://twitter.com/moxie/status/1158852855291269120

(Well, they don't intentionally let apps run all the time in the background. They're quite lax about how long apps can run for in the the background after being woken up in order to support voice calls, but that's not the feature messaging apps need from them.)

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