Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#591

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:56 AM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #335

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

Since the age of 11 I went to school by myself. Sports, dentist appointments and doctors too. It's very common here in Europe and I don't even live in a big city. I see kids on their bikes with a big hockey stick poking out their backpack almost daily. You mention 40 minute walking distance, that's three kilometres for a child or about 10 minutes by bicycle. Or perhaps five stops on a tram or subway. It took a lot of…

Same for me, but I was the only child and as you've said: "Since the age of 11". It is as common here in Russia as it is in Europe.

We were talknig about kids though.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#592

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 6:58 AM UTC

piotr1212 wrote: post #319

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

> yeah, now imaging you have two of them going to two different schools, each 40 minutes walking distance from home, different directions and your office in somewhere else too. I grew up in a small village (+-70k) in the Netherlands, we had 4 schools within 15 min walking distance and I think twice as many with 15 min cycling distance (all kids go to school by bike here). Why would you send your kids to schools 40 mi…

My previous answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20632459

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#593

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:00 AM UTC

adrianh wrote: post #250

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

It’s definitely possible without a car — people here in Holland do it all the time. Maybe qualify your answer to “suburban America” and similarly (non)designed places? Point is, it’s not fundamentally impossible to live with 2+ kids and no car.

I live in Russia though. When I went to school (1995-2005) I lived in a 450k city, now it is Moscow. And Moscow have much better public transport than many other places.

My point was about little kids, you won't send them off to a public transport. We are not talking about teenagers here. Not me at least.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#594

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #361

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

"yeah, now imaging you have two of them going to two different schools, each 40 minutes walking distance from home" How old are these kids? Can they not walk themselves?

Let's say 8 and 9. They can, but they should not at that age. Not before 11-12.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#595

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:03 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #255

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

I think you're struggling to imagine the impact that good public transport has on a cities design. Schools, parks, shops, sporting facilities all start congregating around transport stops/hubs so basically everywhere you need to take kids is within a 5 minute walk of one another. > yeah, now imaging you have two of them going to two different schools, each 40 minutes walking distance from home, different directions a…

I live in Moscow and we arguably have a very good public transpot system. Not the best, but still.

As of the rest of you comment - here is my answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20632459

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#596

Post by konart » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:07 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #530

konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

> When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't do this without a car. In a city designed for walking and bicyling, you can do that by bike. And once they're old enough, they can do it on their own bike. Of course the city needs to…

>If they're going to two different schools, most likely one of them is going to secondary school and can ride their own bike, or one of them is going to a special needs school and gets picked up. At least, that's how it works around here.

My other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20632459

As for the 'secondary' school - I, for example, was attending a Gymnasium as main and a musical Lyceum as a secondary. Both since 6-7 years old. And that's pretty common over here.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#597

Post by martinflack » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 7:34 AM UTC

rpedela wrote: post #428

louwrentius wrote: post #396

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But you are fucked with a huge bill that would cripple your life in a way that you might as well be dead.

The government reimburses hospitals for ER visits if the patient can't pay.

Citation? Genuinely curious.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#598

Post by fit2rule » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 8:16 AM UTC

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #538

primitur wrote: post #536

I love my electric moped. Riding it around my European big-city, it just feels so comforting. Its so quiet, it doesn't scare ducks. Scooters are taking over - Vienna is a green city that has had time to refine its transportation culture over a millenia. Parts of it were built for horses. When I'm on my electric moped, I ride it like a horse. No need to over-do it and speed, or whatever, just pace along at a trot. The…

One problem though: as of today, shared electric moped/scooters are actually worse for the environment than privately-owned ICE cars. Source: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8

Sort of seems like you didn't read your own quote:

"When e-scooter usage replaces average personal automobile travel, we nearly universally realize a net reduction in environmental impacts."

This is not the same as "actually worse for the environment than privately-owned ICE cars", and I'm guessing you've got a reason for your FUD?

I ride electric, too. Mine is charged by solar power. Sure, it took a lot of carbon to get my systems in place - but that's still 100x better than the daily emissions I'm no longer producing.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#599

Post by mcv » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 8:55 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #565

mcv wrote: post #533

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Depends on what you compare it with. Compared with Netherland, rural France is very sparsely populated. But even in rural Netherland (it exists!) you need a car. We're really talking about cities here. In a well-designed city, you shouldn't need a car unless you need to go to a rural area outside the city.

That assumes a value judgment about what is a “well designed city.” Sprawling car dependent cities offend my personal aesthetic sensibilities, but there is a reason that the biggest internal migration trend in the US is away from cities like New York and to cities like Houston and Phoenix. Being able to easily drive everywhere can be very convenient.

But I think it's unhealthy if it comes at the cost of not being able to walk or bike anywhere. Kids need to be able to get around on their own, as should poor people who might not have a car. Cars have a tendency to clog up city centers, and their main value is outside cities, so designing a city so that cars are mainly for getting out of the city, while most places are easily accessible on foot or by bike, I think that creates a healthier, more fun, and more integrated city.

I admit for me personally it's mostly aesthetics, but this is also the direction that many professional city planners are working towards. At least in Netherland. It wasn't always like that; the 60s and 70s were very car-oriented, until people started to realise what the impact of cars on living spaces was.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#600

Post by mcv » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

konart wrote: post #596

mcv wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't do this without a car. In a city designed for walking and bicyling, you can do that by bike. And once they're old enough, they can do it on their own bike. Of course the city needs to…

>If they're going to two different schools, most likely one of them is going to secondary school and can ride their own bike, or one of them is going to a special needs school and gets picked up. At least, that's how it works around here. My other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20632459 As for the 'secondary' school - I, for example, was attending a Gymnasium as main and a musical Lyceum as a secondary…

A single kid going to two different schools is extremely rare here, but as it happens, that's exactly what my son has doing since he was 8: a regular school just around the corner, and a "day a week" school for gifted children which is a bit further away. I take him there by bike. A car wouldn't add much value for me there.

But Amsterdam is a sizable yet compact city, which makes everything easy to reach. In a differently designed city, or a smaller town where you might have to travel to another town, things can be completely different.