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Toni Morrison Has Died

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Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#91
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you trying to play the oppression olympics? We can care about multiple things at the same time. Re: the legacy of slavery, this USA Today article is a good starting point[1]. Additionally, it's plainly obvious that black Americans today have much less wealth than white Americans. When whites settled in the US they were often given farm land or brought capital from abroad to start businesses. Black slaves had…

> Why are you trying to play the oppression olympics? We can care about multiple things at the same time. Right I am no longer interested in talking to you. Pretending something is whataboutism when I am trying to bring some perspective is a nonsense. As for your stats. I've seen stats that if Black couples get married and have a household they do just as well as White couples from a similar background (not I am not…

Your claim this isn't whataboutism is interesting based on a quick reading of your comment history. It sure doesn't appear that you actually care about these other issues or you're just trying to provide 'perspective'. Think about the ideals you associate yourself with before complaining that people are putting words in your mouth.

Whitewashing the proud boys:

> The proud boys are a strange white power group when they have prominent black members.

Claiming UKIP aren't racist because they are 'normal' people:

> Have you actually talked to many UKIP supporters? I've spoken to UKIP when they knocked on the door and they seemed like pretty normal people.

(I'm sure they're normal, but they're also racists)

Claiming apparent race-baiting:

> As for the the actual article you linked, the author herself has nice race-bait titles of work

Comparing criticisms of historic oppression in science to Nazi Germany:

> There is also ideas of "Colonial Science" or "White Science" which reminds me of movement of removing "Jewish" Science and Mathematics in preference to "Aryan Science" before World War II.'

I might not call you a racist, but you're sure carrying a lot of water for them.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#92
post #76

I could never get into her work, personally. I was forced to read 'Beloved' in high school, and found it dense, poorly written, and just unpleasant to read. I know she's won a ton of awards, so it's probably just me. Sorry to hear she passed though.

I had never heard of her, or any of her books - I went to primary school in the 80’s, though. Is she somebody that’s only recently been included in the curriculum in the past few decades?

Well, _Beloved_ for instance was published in 1987, and Jazz, also mentioned in this thread, in 1992. Her first novel, _The Bluest Eye_, in 1970.

But yeah, I would say she has continued to increase in popularity (popularly and in school curriculums) since the 1980s, although some high schoolers were probably reading her works in the 80s. I graduated from high school in 1983, and read Beloved in a class.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#93
I read Beloved when I was in high school. I was so entranced in the world she created, that time passed without me noticing. Truly a visionary author.

Unrelated, but it's kind of scary how many comments have, if not an undertone, just straight up racism.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#94
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Toni Morrison is one of the most revered writers in human history. I've never even heard of her and none of their works sound remotely familiar nor have I heard of the film her award winning book was adapted from... I'm not sure how accurate that statement is.

It sounds like you don't read much fiction! Think about it this way—if you came up to a random person and said "Donald Knuth is one of the most revered computer scientists in human history" and they said "well why haven't I heard of them before", would that mean Donald Knuth is a nobody, or that this person just doesn't really have any interest or background in this person's field?

>It sounds like you don't read much fiction!

I almost exclusively read fiction. I do not read a lot of (any) period African-American literature given I read for pleasure and not for tales of historically accurate racism and child molestation (The Bluest Eye apparently) in fiction (which appears to be her thing based on the 5 wiki entries I opened for her works).

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#95
(Disclaimer: I have not read any “actual” work by Toni Morrison, so my knowledge is limited to the following, which I wanted to share.)

There's a great profile of the editor Robert Gottlieb who worked with her, including a few wonderful quotes from Toni Morrison revealing how she worked (search the page for "Morrison"; there are about 10 quotes), from 1994: https://web.archive.org/web/20161227170954/http://www.thepar... — the whole thing is a great read even if you don't care about Toni Morrison (every lover of reading is likely to enjoy it), but if you do, it may just be a few snippets that you might have otherwise missed as it's not “about” Toni Morrison.

> [Morrison] Writing my first two books, The Bluest Eye and Sula, I had the anxiety of a new writer who needs to make sure every sentence is exactly the right one. Sometimes that produces a kind of precious, jeweled quality—a tightness, which I particularly wanted in Sula. Then after I finished Sula and was working on the third book, Song of Solomon, Bob said to me, You can loosen, open up. Your writing doesn’t have to be so contained; it can be wider. I’m not sure these were his exact words, but I know that the consequence of the remarks was that I did relax and begin to open up to possibilities. It was because I was able to open up to those possibilities that I began to think things like, What would happen if indeed I followed this strange notion or image or picture I had in my mind of this woman who had no navel . . . whereas normally I would have dismissed such an idea as recklessness. It was as if he had said, Be reckless in your imagination.

> [Gottlieb] I remember the discussion with Toni as she was beginning Song of Solomon, because although we always did some marginal cosmetic work on her manuscripts, obviously a writer of her powers and discrimination doesn’t need a lot of help with her prose. I think I served Toni best by encouraging her—helping to free her to be herself. The only other real help I gave to her was noneditorial: I encouraged her to stop editing and to write full-time, something I knew she wanted to do. As I remember it, I reassured her about her finances—but what I was really saying was, You’re not an editor who does some writing, you’re a writer—acknowledge it; there’s nothing to be scared of. We always understood each other—two editors, two lovers of reading, and exactly the same age.

[…]

> [Morrison] Writing for me is just a very sustained process of reading. The only difference is that writing a book might take three or four years, and I’m doing it. I never wrote a line until after I became an editor, and only then because I wanted to read something that I couldn’t find. That was the first book I wrote.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#96
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you don't read much fiction! Think about it this way—if you came up to a random person and said "Donald Knuth is one of the most revered computer scientists in human history" and they said "well why haven't I heard of them before", would that mean Donald Knuth is a nobody, or that this person just doesn't really have any interest or background in this person's field?

>It sounds like you don't read much fiction! I almost exclusively read fiction. I do not read a lot of (any) period African-American literature given I read for pleasure and not for tales of historically accurate racism and child molestation (The Bluest Eye apparently) in fiction (which appears to be her thing based on the 5 wiki entries I opened for her works).

> I do not read a lot of (any) period African-American literature

Guess you answered your own question, a hole in your reading preferences is a reflection of you, not society. For the record I read The Bluest Eye in college and it was pretty eye-opening.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#97
post #11

I love reading, but only a handful of books have really changed the way I look at the world. The Bluest Eye was one of them. Minor spoiler: in the bluest eye a young black girl obsesses over a white female doll with blue eyes. Before I read it, I never considered the impact that the idealization of white beauty could have on minorities. After reading that book, I realized how important it was for children to be able…

> how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? What, are you an elf or a dwarf? Or maybe somehow you are both at the same time? My head is spinning.

Pretty much everyone is light skinned, except for some southerners who are not prominently featured, but mentioned a few times. The descriptions of them are not exactly positive http://www.henneth-annun.net/bios_view.cfm?SCID=194

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#98
post #7
post #4

I majored in English lit at university and one of my early requirements was a single author course. Having little general knowledge of famous authors, I chose the Toni Morrison class at random. I remember on the first day being surprised to find our that Toni Morrison was a woman and that her writing had such a strong focus on race and slavery. I was rather intimidated. Turned out to be one of the best classes I had…

I had a similar experience growing up in the mostly white suburbs of Baltimore. We read Beloved junior year and it was absolutely devastating. It opened my eyes to the deep, unhealed wounds of slavery and that sort of tumultuous, all-consuming pain. It was a difficult book to read at that age—I can't imagine any age when it would be easy to read—and I appreciate that we were asked to sit with it. Another book that ha…

Yukio Mishima's biography is a depressingly vivid example of the dangers of repressing your identity, with his repressed gay identity seemingly spilling out into far-right nationalism and then terrorism.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#99
post #11

I love reading, but only a handful of books have really changed the way I look at the world. The Bluest Eye was one of them. Minor spoiler: in the bluest eye a young black girl obsesses over a white female doll with blue eyes. Before I read it, I never considered the impact that the idealization of white beauty could have on minorities. After reading that book, I realized how important it was for children to be able…

To be fair, Tolkien explicitly set out to create a Northern European pre-history or mythology. I am not sure if he even considered non-European readers as his audience.

A good parallel might be the love many Westerners have for anime.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#100
I don't often feel a strong emotion when a famous person dies, but this one got me. The beauty in her books is staggering, I read them with no preconceptions (which is often hard to do with famous books) and was completely blown away. As pure literature divorced from any reality they'd still be all-time great works, and their connection to the real experience of black people in America raises them to even greater heights.

From everything I have read she was a wonderful person aside from her writing. Thoughtful and careful, influential without being loud.

I think the world will miss her, and we will always have her words.

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