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Toni Morrison Has Died

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Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#81

Post by bubblewrap »

MrRadar wrote: post #80
bubblewrap wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard of AAVE before. Wikipedia claims it is "natively spoken, particularly in urban communities, by most working- and middle-class African Americans and some Black Canadians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En... So if it is so commonly used, why on earth should it be offensive to refer to it? In what way would you consider my statement "mocking"? I don't think it is very relevan…

> I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do. In an English-based discussion entirely around issues of race the ways racists commonly use the English language is very relevant. Using the word "momma" by itself is not offensive however in this context it is slightly offensive because the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person. I don't think people here are even taki…

"the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person."

I still don't see what exactly is so mocking about it. Yes, I was perhaps "conjuring up" a stereotypical scenario. So what? Clearly, the stereotype exists. Even if it doesn't reflect reality, imo it would still be valid to refer to the stereotype, as the stereotype exists and is part of reality. The much celebrated Toni Morrison book also conjures a stereotype, about a black girl obsessing to become white. Somehow that is good - why?

And again, no - nobody should be forced to spend time learning about the behavior of racists. Why should they? Life is too short to spend it studying nasty people. I reject this as an attempt to control other people's life, with the power of being a minority.

"Generally the way to avoid being offensive in that situation is to write your characters respectfully as human beings, and to ask members of the minority group you are portraying to review your work for any unintentional offensiveness before publication."

Nope, and that is also why I am so defensive. I value freedom of thought and freedom of art higher than people's choice of being offended.

Of course any writer is free to make the choice to try to offend as few people as possible. But writers should also be allowed to write what they think.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#82

Post by MrRadar »

bubblewrap wrote: post #81
MrRadar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do. In an English-based discussion entirely around issues of race the ways racists commonly use the English language is very relevant. Using the word "momma" by itself is not offensive however in this context it is slightly offensive because the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person. I don't think people here are even taki…

"the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person." I still don't see what exactly is so mocking about it. Yes, I was perhaps "conjuring up" a stereotypical scenario. So what? Clearly, the stereotype exists. Even if it doesn't reflect reality, imo it would still be valid to refer to the stereotype, as the stereotype exists and is part of reality. The much celebrated Toni Morrison book a…

> nobody should be forced to spend time learning about the behavior of racists. Why should they?

To recognize racists around you so you can avoid them or call them out? To avoid accidentally saying racist things yourself?

> I reject this as an attempt to control other people's life, with the power of being a minority.

Okay, so you are racist. Goodbye.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#83

Post by selimthegrim »

rc_hadoken wrote: post #74
eitland wrote: post #25

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

I'm black African. And most of my role models don't look like me. Musashi, Taleb, Frederick Douglas is in there as an exception etc. But when I look at someone who has accomplished what I want to the first thing that adds to motivation is not that they look like me...this is a wildly debilitating mindset I know it exists but lets not make it out to be healthy.

Maybe if you were African American it would be that they would have overcome similar skin color based obstacles

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#84

Post by pryce »

yardie wrote: post #23
Insuranceman wrote: post #19

My first intro to Morrison was thru 'The Bluest Eye'. Afterwards I read many of her books incl 'Beloved'. I loved all of them. One thing I could however never understand was how a person with such deep insights into the African American experience could call Bill Clinton, 'the first Black President'. I thought at first maybe there was something I didn't understand. But as years passed, I've been increasingly feeling…

I still don’t understand why she called Clinton the first black president. I think people confused his charm for respect and understanding. I believer Bill Clinton was the first presidential candidate to get Black voters. Until then most candidates would rely on black celebrity and community leaders to meet black voters. Not only would he meet them in churches and community centers, he was really comfortable doing it…

She later clarified what she meant, in her 2008 interview with Time magazine by saying: "People misunderstood that phrase. I was deploring the way in which President Clinton was being treated, vis-à-vis the sex scandal that was surrounding him. I said he was being treated like a black on the street, already guilty, already a perp. I have no idea what his real instincts are, in terms of race."

In her original comment it is more limited even than that - it refers to hearing other people "murmuring" of Clinton as "the first Black president" in the context of his impeachment, rather than giving some sort of unqualified endorsement of the idea herself; but people do love an inflammatory sound byte.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#85

Post by dang »

PascLeRasc wrote: post #41
bubblewrap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black dolls exist, though. What black momma bought their kids only white dolls???

In this comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20316831 ) you used the formal term "mother" . Why did you switch to "momma" when talking about Black families?

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. The site guidelines ask you to flag egregious comments rather than replying.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#86

Post by selimthegrim »

bubblewrap wrote: post #81
MrRadar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do. In an English-based discussion entirely around issues of race the ways racists commonly use the English language is very relevant. Using the word "momma" by itself is not offensive however in this context it is slightly offensive because the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person. I don't think people here are even taki…

"the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person." I still don't see what exactly is so mocking about it. Yes, I was perhaps "conjuring up" a stereotypical scenario. So what? Clearly, the stereotype exists. Even if it doesn't reflect reality, imo it would still be valid to refer to the stereotype, as the stereotype exists and is part of reality. The much celebrated Toni Morrison book a…

People will judge you by the verbal company you keep. Sometimes skinheads tragically ruin good bars if the owners/bartenders aren’t vigilant

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#87

Post by dang »

bubblewrap wrote: post #30

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

Would you please stop taking HN threads further into ideological flamewar? It's tedious and off topic here, and amounts to vandalism. We've had to ask you this before.

Edit: actually, since you did this twice in as many days, I've banned your account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use HN as intended in the future.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#88

Post by dang »

eitland wrote: post #25

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#89

Post by dang »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #48
ergothus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. But you didn't and don't lack for options. I'm a straight white man from America. No matter what personal, family, and economic difficulties I've faced: - I have literal decades of seeing other white men in a variety of roles. I can pick and choose from the stereotypes I want to put in high…

My grandmother cries when describing the poverty they lived in when she was a child (1930s) in Newcastle (Northern England). Nobody had it easy in the past. Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it. People of all colours and creeds will try to garner sympathy from the other group by claiming how disadva…

> Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it.

This crosses into personal attack. That's not ok here, so please don't. Also, please don't get sucked into flamewars, regardless of how annoying another comment is; they're tedious and off topic here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#90

Post by dang »

ergothus wrote: post #58
davesmith1983 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandmother cries when describing the poverty they lived in when she was a child (1930s) in Newcastle (Northern England). Nobody had it easy in the past. Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it. People of all colours and creeds will try to garner sympathy from the other group by claiming how disadva…

> Nobody had it easy in the past. Clearly everyone has had it equally difficult and there is no grouping of peoples that get systemic mistreatment, evidence and statistics be damned. Yes, people can have it hard. And people can have it hard out of proportion with their peers. This doesn't alter provable facts about sweeping populations. > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it…

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

Also, would you please not post in the flamewar style to HN, regardless of how wrong or provocative another comment is? It only leads further into hell.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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