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Toni Morrison Has Died

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31–40 of 108 posts

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#31

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

There are entire industries built around helping people of color look and act more white. One of the early post-abolition black businesses sold hair straightening products. Toni Morrison's writing was based on real lived experiences.

You don't know what you don't know. Now you know there are things outside your knowledge and experience. Take this as an opportunity to look deeper.

Personally, I do enjoy finally seeing more queer characters on TV and in movies who aren't stereotypes and who aren't killed off to make cisgender and heterosexual people cry. I know a lot of people of color who are ecstatic over improving representation in the same way.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#32

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

If it doesn't matter, then why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? If people enjoyed protagonists regardless of their ethnicity or gender, then why isn't fiction more diverse? Why are almost all DC and Marvel superheroes white males? Etc.

> Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes?

Apparently, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_e...

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#33

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

Were ALL your dolls black? No.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#34
All the respect in the world to her, but Toni Morrison was an average writer that rode special consideration into fame. Let's stop pretending things are better than they are in order to project some kind of signaling.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#35

Can anyone explain/summarize who this person was? I've never heard of them.

Since she died recently, there are several new articles that explain/summarize who she was. Here's an example:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nobel-laureate-toni-morrison-ha...

discussed on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20625132

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#36
post #25

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

> FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males.

But you didn't and don't lack for options.

I'm a straight white man from America. No matter what personal, family, and economic difficulties I've faced:

- I have literal decades of seeing other white men in a variety of roles. I can pick and choose from the stereotypes I want to put in high regard, emulate, or dismiss, not 3 or 4.

- growing up, there was no blanket treatment of me or people others decided I was like outside of choices I made. I could adopt "redneck" habits/dress, or "frat boy", or "nerd", or "jock", but I had control over whether I was identified as a "thug", or " aggressive", or "professional".

- Because "my" culture was broadcast everywhere (TV/movies/books/magazines), I was never regarded as "weird" or "threatening" because people weren't accustomed to anything I'd do or say or how I'd dress.

As a kid, I was freaked out by the first black person I met, because his palms were a lighter color than the rest of his skin. That's a stupid thing to be freaked out by, but it was _different_ to me because I didn't see it anywhere. It wasn't "normal" My skin color, in return, was very "normal" looking to him, because fish-belly-pale is hardly a skin color that is hard to see in any community - just turn on the TV. Growing up in a more diverse area I would have seen more and wouldn't have had that reaction - but turn on the TV and it was still monochromatic.

As a kid I regularly teased a girl in my grade (a friend!) for her hairstyle, because it wasn't "normal". Of course, it was quite normal - if you have those genes, or see anyone that does. Again, put me in a more diverse world and I'd have seen it...but what did she see on TV? in movies? on magazine covers?

And there were "black" TV shows, and "black" magazines...but everything else wasn't "white" - it was "normal". Which meant "not black".

I had, and have, the liberty of choice because "normal" includes me, and I can choose if I want to include it. But if "normal" was defined to exclude me, what kinds of choices would I have? I might become a "well-spoken" and "clean" black man!

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#37
post #33

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

Were ALL your dolls black? No.

Black dolls exist, though. What black momma bought their kids only white dolls???

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#38

All the respect in the world to her, but Toni Morrison was an average writer that rode special consideration into fame. Let's stop pretending things are better than they are in order to project some kind of signaling.

Completely unfounded, ridiculous, and racist suggestion. Toni Morrison is one of the most revered writers in human history.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#39
post #32

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

If it doesn't matter, then why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? If people enjoyed protagonists regardless of their ethnicity or gender, then why isn't fiction more diverse? Why are almost all DC and Marvel superheroes white males? Etc. > Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? Apparently, yes. https://en.wikipe…

Why are many characters white? Because many writers are white. Should white authors write books with non-white heroes? Wouldn't that result in an outcry about cultural appropriation and things like that? Never mind that it would presumably be difficult to credibly describe the experience of people you have not experienced yourself?

Are there many non-white authors writing books with white heroes/heroines? Maybe they should just write more books about people who "look like them"?

A lot of popular children books actually have female heroines, like Pippa Longstocking, Astrid Lindgren being one of the most popular authors of children's books. I never had a problem enjoying them, strange enough. It never occurred to me as a kid that I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy reading those books, because the protagonists have the wrong gender. Good thing today's children have better education on such issues - god forbid they could enjoy a book of the wrong identification!!!

What about Lord of the Rings, should PoC be able to enjoy that book? Should it be considered a hate crime to recommend the book to a PoC? Should the government give out a grant for someone to write an alternative to Lotr with PoC heroines?

Female Superheroes exist, but it is also only one rather silly genre (and only two publishers). Plus, there are other reasons why action heroes tend to be male: because men are expendable and therefore supposed to do the dangerous work, as in real life. Superheroes are a lie, anyway, but to tell women they could simply be action heroes would be an even greater lie.

As for the experiment: "These findings exposed internalized racism in African-American children, self-hatred that was more acute among children attending segregated schools" - that is clearly an unwarranted interpretation of the result, fueled by ideology. And wanting to play with white dolls is not "obsessing" over white dolls.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#40
post #32

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

If it doesn't matter, then why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? If people enjoyed protagonists regardless of their ethnicity or gender, then why isn't fiction more diverse? Why are almost all DC and Marvel superheroes white males? Etc. > Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? Apparently, yes. https://en.wikipe…

> why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white?

I can't speak to every single case, but Harry Potter is a British franchise by origin. England is over 92% white. It does stand to reason that a fantasy novel set in England would feature mostly white characters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd...

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