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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#561
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checks? France loves checks and use them more than Americans. No public health care? That isn’t true either. Medicaid and Medicare are public health care. Another legitimate peculiarity of Americans is the vastly higher disposable income compared to most other countries. Even with all of the “free” stuff, the French have lower wages and far less disposable income than Americans.

The French have the RIB system, wherein you can send a snapshot of what your account details are, and the bills are automatically deducted from there. In practice, that means you need to use cheques MUCH less frequently than in the US. What's worse, the US doesn't have an easy way to transfer money electronically between banks! Thus requiring even more cheques.

> The French have the RIB system

When living in France I never came across the use case you describe, at least not in this form. But I did often come across people wanting money from me sending their RIB as an image attachment to emails rather than copying and pasting their IBAN into the body of the mail like elsewhere in Europe.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#562
post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry but I've noticed to be a bit different in Copenhagen. I've been living here for 3 years, and the number of cars have grown quite a lot to my perception, specially between families (maybe just because they are luxury cars and Teslas everywhere). I am 36 have one little child and feel like I am missing a bit of the country because I don't have a car, even if I have made few trips by train. Also, a lot of my…

You're hitting on a point that drives a lot of the disconnects in these sorts of discussions. There are a lot of places where you don't need to own a car or even have a drivers license. And you constrain your activities accordingly. You may rely to some degree on friends with cars (though this tends to become less and less practical as you get older). Or you rent cars as needed if you have a license. But you probably…

You don't need to own a car to take weekend trips to the country or even a quick trip hauling some gear: just rent one. Here in the US, we have "Zipcar" which lets you rent a car on the spot for a short term; in Europe, I saw "Car2Go" which is probably similar.

>As a visitor, I rarely have a rental car in SF for example. But it means I am going to be pretty much staying in the city rather than taking a hike somewhere for half a day.

I'm in DC, and I've frequently gone on hikes outside the city and seen people drive to the trailhead in a Zipcar.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends but for me definitely not. I have a car and much prefer public transports instead of having to be stuck in traffic then having the hassle of parking the car. I feel way more free in the city without my car, and the journey is faster as well. You are right that it’s quite packed in the rush hour, but you can still read a book standing. Regarding the other issues you cite it really depends of the line. The o…

Sure, but assuming there was little traffic and there was plenty of parking available? My point is that when comparing imperfect reality with perfect "grass on the other side", the "other side" will likely win. For example, given the unaffordability and small size/low quality of dwellings available in London, American perfectly manicured suburbs with plenty of space and big open highways may start to look somewhat ap…

Assumption would require razing whole city, with costs to all other users, especially pedestrians. So no, it is not going to happen.

Even with new laws requiring buildings to provide underground parking places, it won't be enough. It's never enough.

The suburbs exist in Greater London area too, just as they do near Warsaw. They have similar style to American ones, but more nearby services and are built in clusters. That makes them much more accessible to foot traffic.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American cities definitely don't look nice as a tourist. SF for example is terrible if you don't Uber everywhere.

Really? SF is one of the best, IMO. You can actually take long walks, it actually has a subway (plus busses, trams), it has sidewalks almost everywhere..... sure, less parks than one would like/ a bit too much concrete, lots of homeless people, etc. but hey, it's a big USA city, what did you expect? Compare it to e.g. the nearby San Jose - SF is so much better that it's not even funny. What US city would you consider…

>MAYBE NY, if we only include Manhattan and nothing else.

Yep, NYC is not very walkable if you leave Manhattan island. One big difference though with NYC is the naming and the political boundaries. NYC is very unique in America because it's one really big city with different "boroughs", all very different from each other. If it were any city, it wouldn't be like this: all those places would actually be separate cities, all part of the same metro area. (NYC has this too, with Jersey City, Newark, Stamford, etc. all being part of the metro area, but it's remarkable that so much of the metro area is actually one city.) Just look at LA for instance: LA itself is a pretty small part of the metro area, with many other towns and cities comprising it.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#565
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's because population density in France is 4x higher than that in the US. That's a meaningless statement unless you're comparing the Paris metropolitan area to some similar area in the US. France doesn't have a sparsely populated continental interior to drag down the nation wide population density.

Depends on what you compare it with. Compared with Netherland, rural France is very sparsely populated. But even in rural Netherland (it exists!) you need a car. We're really talking about cities here. In a well-designed city, you shouldn't need a car unless you need to go to a rural area outside the city.

That assumes a value judgment about what is a “well designed city.” Sprawling car dependent cities offend my personal aesthetic sensibilities, but there is a reason that the biggest internal migration trend in the US is away from cities like New York and to cities like Houston and Phoenix. Being able to easily drive everywhere can be very convenient.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#566
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if us public transit users aren't living in reality. Yeah okay bud. - Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to transit because you happen have a car and don't believe improve…

> Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. All you are admitting here is that the Government can't provide a compelling alternative to a more expensive form of transport. > But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to tran…

>This is such a biased representation of what the real problem is and you conveniently ignore things like violent thugs on public transport (I've experienced this several times in the UK), rowdy teenagers, drunks and the mentally ill.

Except these problems don't seem to exist at all on Japanese or German trains.

Maybe there's just something seriously wrong with your country.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#567
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French have the RIB system, wherein you can send a snapshot of what your account details are, and the bills are automatically deducted from there. In practice, that means you need to use cheques MUCH less frequently than in the US. What's worse, the US doesn't have an easy way to transfer money electronically between banks! Thus requiring even more cheques.

> The French have the RIB system When living in France I never came across the use case you describe, at least not in this form. But I did often come across people wanting money from me sending their RIB as an image attachment to emails rather than copying and pasting their IBAN into the body of the mail like elsewhere in Europe.

That's more or less what I meant, except with utility companies instead of people. Apologies if I made it sound fancier. Having lived in the US and France, I think the places where cheques were used a lot was in bills-type things. That's why I brought this example up.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely hate this argument. In Europe, you take the train and there is literal farm land in between stations. While there are lots of small towns and villages close together in a way that you don't necessarily see in North America, the average density is considerably less than Los Angeles, for example. There is no good reason LA couldn't be crisscrossed by trains instead of by freeways.

In similar vein, I've seen a lot of people use the same argument against high speed inter-city rail (ie cities in the US are far apart), yet the low density interior of China is connected by high speed rail all the way to Ürümqi.

Going coast-to-coast in the US on rail would take a long time, even with a bullet train, so it just wouldn't be competitive with airplanes.

However, going up and down the coasts would make perfect sense for HSR. Traveling from LA to SanFran, for instance, would be much better on a bullet train than an airplane, and the travel time would probably be similar (airplanes have lots of wasted overhead time). The northeast corridor would also be a great place for a bullet train (no, the Acela is not a bullet train). NY-Chicago or DC-Chicago would probably be a good route too.

The problem in the US is just a total lack of political will, and an idiotic aversion on the part of the populace to using trains.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#569
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. All you are admitting here is that the Government can't provide a compelling alternative to a more expensive form of transport. > But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to tran…

>This is such a biased representation of what the real problem is and you conveniently ignore things like violent thugs on public transport (I've experienced this several times in the UK), rowdy teenagers, drunks and the mentally ill. Except these problems don't seem to exist at all on Japanese or German trains. Maybe there's just something seriously wrong with your country.

> Except these problems don't seem to exist at all on Japanese or German trains.

Lets see if that is true:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/10/knife-attack-jap...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/25/tokyo-knife-at...

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/big-increase-in-sex-assa...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-07/women-subjected-to-da...

Doesn't seem that much better to me.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#570
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is such a biased representation of what the real problem is and you conveniently ignore things like violent thugs on public transport (I've experienced this several times in the UK), rowdy teenagers, drunks and the mentally ill. Except these problems don't seem to exist at all on Japanese or German trains. Maybe there's just something seriously wrong with your country.

> Except these problems don't seem to exist at all on Japanese or German trains. Lets see if that is true: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/18/german-train-axe... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/10/knife-attack-jap... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/25/tokyo-knife-at... https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/big-increase-in-sex-assa... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-07/women-subjected-to…

So you cherry-pick a few examples (one of which wasn't on public transit at all), and you think that's better than a place where 30,000 people per year are killed in auto crashes? Your likelihood of dying on a train in Japan are almost nil, whereas your likelihood of dying in your car on American roads are actually pretty significant, and it's one of the biggest causes of death of non-elderly people.
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