Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#541

Post by noobermin » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #517

noobermin wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As have been pointed out by multiple people, kids are perfectly capable of taking public transit themselves. This is another difference that intersects with other issues in America. In a car, your child is under your control . Moreover, adding to your following point of a child under ten being unaccompanied in public, no American parent would dream of letting their children go out alone and recently, this includes…

> no American parent would dream of letting their children go out alone and recently, this includes even children in their early teens This is, AFAICT, mostly a white suburban “middle-class” (mid-high income working class, including proletarian intelligentsia, really) attitude, rather than something that applies to all American parents.

Along with the other replies, you're right. I will say though, when we're talking about car culture, white suburban middle class types are ones to mostly support it.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#542

Post by Ericson2314 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #183

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

It's the case not just in Korea and Japan but in most cities outside of America. It's one of American peculiarities, like checks or no public health care. China has a fantastic subway system in most big cities, for example. I once took a subway ride from the Shenzhen airport to the Hong Kong border, crossed the border, switched to another subway and arrived in downtown Hong Kong. That's around 65km (40 miles) by publ…

In New York you don't need a car either. But this isn't good enough. A Car-free city means no one is allowed to use automobiles for personal transportation. I'm sick of non-necessary car use ruining the quality of life for everyone else.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#543

Post by magduf » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

novok wrote: post #486

agent008t wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same reason why you can have vending machines everywhere in Japan but not in the US. Uniformly high cultural level (relatively speaking), as well as a high level of trust (justified) probably has a lot to do with it.

I don't see how a lack of uniform culture and trust prevents vending machines elsewhere, or what it has to do with vending machine proliferation? In japan you even have vending machines to pay for your restaurant food inside the restaurant, where your usually paying upfront. And some parking lots have per stall locks that don't let you drive away until you pay. You could argue that is symbolic of lower "trust".

The "vending machines" inside restaurants are only there to increase efficiency and reduce labor needs, because there's a labor shortage of sorts in Japan.

For stuff outside, they just don't have problems with vandalism and theft the way America does, so it makes it much more feasible to have lots of vending machines outside: no one is going to deface them or break into them.

This is also really useful for bicycling. Bikes in Japan all seem to have little locks on the back which go through the rear wheel's spokes, so someone can't just hop on and pedal away. But there's nothing stopping someone from picking the bike up and carrying it away, putting it on a truck, etc. But theft is almost nonexistent in Japan, so people just leave their bike parked on the sidewalk and don't worry about it, and this makes biking very easy and feasible, whereas in the US you have to worry about someone stealing it if it isn't U-locked to something completely immovable, and even then someone might steal parts off of it.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#544

Post by Ericson2314 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

camillomiller wrote: post #479

rexgallorum2 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your estimated costs are pretty average, but I found the €30k figure curious. Used cars are dirt cheap in Germany, and they are often in really good shape and well maintained compared to used cars in other countries. I occasionally drive a 20 year old Opel that was purchased 7 years ago for €2500. It works great. I ride my bike most of the time, but it's really handy to have a car to haul kids or heavy/bulky stuff.

If you have kids, especially more than one, a no-car city center is a nightmare. Even in Europe.

How about you raise your kids without the big trust-no-one bubble mover?

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#545

Post by vict00ms » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #487

noobermin wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an old conspiracy, although its accuracy is debatable, google the "General Motors streetcar conspiracy." Another potential possibility is many cities scrapped their streetcars for spare metal during WWII. Along with that, market forces and lobbying and policy by people like Robert Moses, the current form of America was created.

The veracity of the story notwithstanding, the core of the conspiracy, though, was to push buses over streetcars, not cars .

...Because (per the conspiracy) the manufacturers of cars knew that busses were unpleasant to ride in (compared to trolley cars) and that most people would prefer to own a car over riding in one.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#546

Post by davesmith1983 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #497

davesmith1983 wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virgin trains wants basically another 10-15 a month on top of your journey for internet and you can't take a bike on their trains without phoning ahead first. Cross country aren't much better. Phone internet doesn't work on the train typically. That combined with the travel sickness after each journey make the car much more appealing. I will never go back to using the train as long as I can legally drive. They are ju…

I use 4G tethering and works really well between Crewe and Manchester (well enough for uninterupted youtube streaming and ssh sessions). Virgin "pendilinos" have free wifi now too. Northern run on the Manchester-Stoke line and don't need bike reservations. YMMV.

Yeh well I gave catching the train a chance (I was riding trains for about 10 years before I could afford a car) and driving is much easier.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#547

Post by AstralStorm » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

rexgallorum2 wrote: post #521

zhdc1 wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

€30k is only a little under the annual salary in Germany, so I'm suspicious that this figure is somewhat overblown as well. €30k is enough for pretty much any new entry level or basic trim car outside of Audi/BMW/Porsche.

Cars are important status symbols in Germany, and people who can afford it often do exactly as described--buy a new or slightly used Audi/BMW/Mercedes, use it for a while, keep it in absolutely immaculate condition, and sell it on a couple of years later for close to what they paid for it. Those higher end cars often go through many owners until they no longer pass inspection and finally get exported. 'Ordinary' peop…

And then those sold cars end up in Poland. Reuse, then recycle. ;)

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#548

Post by mschuetz » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

benrbray wrote: post #52

Not just Europe! Tokyo, for example, is a remarkably pedestrian and bicycle-friendly city, despite also supporting quite heavy traffic in some areas. And of course, the extensive train network completely eliminates the need for a car in daily life. If you pick a random place on the map (like [1]), you'll see that the high-speed traffic is very well-separated from residential areas, with infrequent intersections. Ther…

Tokyo did an amazing job at making it's city pedestrian friendly. Wish more big cities would follow its lead.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#549

Post by davesmith1983 » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

thex10 wrote: post #525

wozniacki wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and a dozen very closely related and tangential things concerning safety, sanitation, hygiene & propriety of people using public transportation is the reason people like me would never opt for it. Unless standards in those aspects of public transit were raised to such a high degree that they were no longer a threat or annoyance, a car would be exponentially more preferable. I think people on HN seem to underesti…

As if us public transit users aren't living in reality. Yeah okay bud. - Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to transit because you happen have a car and don't believe improve…

> Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money.

All you are admitting here is that the Government can't provide a compelling alternative to a more expensive form of transport.

> But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to transit because you happen have a car and don't believe improved transit would benefit you anyway.

Why vote to increase spending on something that doesn't benefit you? People won't and you won't convince anyone. This is an unrealistic standard you expect of other people, plus the high and mighty tone you are using won't win people over.

> The population using public transit generally reflects the fact that our culture encourages anyone with enough money/resources to purchase and use a car -- leaving behind everyone who can't (e.g. cash poor, disabled). This scares off the more sensitive potential transit users who'd rather pretend these folks don't exist.

This is such a biased representation of what the real problem is and you conveniently ignore things like violent thugs on public transport (I've experienced this several times in the UK), rowdy teenagers, drunks and the mentally ill.

I used to have a guy who stank and wore a soccer ball on his head catch the same bus, large groups of teenage boys vandalising the train coaches or playing loud music on a quiet carriage and they are far from the worst I've encountered.

No I don't want to have to deal with possibility of violence, nutcases and other general unpleasantness so I won't take the train (I am in the UK).

> The jarring reality is that most Americans (and their political leadership) are classist, sheltered, and have a "fuck you, I got mine" attitude.

I doubt they are. What they want to do is get on with their life with as little hassle as possible, like most people do.

> Source: US lifelong resident of various large cities, no driver's license at the age of 31.

So no real evidence what-so-ever other than your very biased opinion.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#550

Post by Faark » Tue, Aug 06, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

fluffything wrote: post #402

vladojsem wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Europe (in Prague right now) and I never needed to own a car here. I would say it depends on the city in Europe. However, if you occasionally happen to be outside of the city center where only cars go you would call Uber. I am fine with that when 90% of my daily transport is covered by public transport.

I live in Germany, and use the bike, e-scooter/bikes/... and public transport for everything. I have owned a car before, and I did not use those other transportation methods any less. We don't own a car anymore because it does not make economic sense for us. When we need to travel by car inside the city, we just use Uber (~30 EUR/month is what we currently pay). When we need a car for a couple of hours to pick up stu…

I also have a hard time seeing how a "high end car" is a fair comparison to not having a car at all.

Anyway, could you also elaborate on your parking situation? Is this mostly destination parking? I'm just a bit surprised, since a resident parking permit is like €20 for two years here in berlin [0].

[0] https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/121721/ (german)