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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#491

Post by martin_a »

iagovar wrote: post #378
martin_a wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany: Most (all?) cities have special tickets for pupils. There are separate bus lines in the morning which pick up the pupils from the bus stops and take them directly to school. In the afternoon there are some special lines too, otherwise you just take a normal line with your pupil ticket. That's at least how it worked in my time, like 20+ years ago.

I just walked to school. I never needed to take a bus or the car except when I lived far in the countryside. I'm talking about Spain. Anyway schools sometimes have their own bus, parents pay a private company so the bus takes the students either from their home or very close. In the uni there was special bus lines that went around all the city to the campus.

> In the uni there was special bus lines that went around all the city to the campus.

I know this from my university city, too. It was arranged that way so that students would not overcrowd the normal bus lines.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#492

Post by boohoojangles »

markus92 wrote: post #383
briandear wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have transporters in the US, they are called cars. And they have air conditioning. The entire world doesn’t have to be just like the Netherlands. Try riding one of those transporter bikes in the Colorado mountains in winter or in south Florida in the summer.

That's why they invented e-bikes.

Those cargo bikes, like Nihola aren't that cheap though.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#493

Post by agent008t »

tarsinge wrote: post #488
agent008t wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not more out of necessity though? Would those people not prefer to drive if that was a viable option? In Paris specifically, the public transportation is fairly unpleasant - a lot of homeless people, antisocial behavior, bad odours, etc. Not sure how it is during rush hour, but probably uncomfortably packed too, so the ideal that Americans seem to have of sitting in a pleasant train reading a book or doing some…

It depends but for me definitely not. I have a car and much prefer public transports instead of having to be stuck in traffic then having the hassle of parking the car. I feel way more free in the city without my car, and the journey is faster as well. You are right that it’s quite packed in the rush hour, but you can still read a book standing. Regarding the other issues you cite it really depends of the line. The o…

Sure, but assuming there was little traffic and there was plenty of parking available?

My point is that when comparing imperfect reality with perfect "grass on the other side", the "other side" will likely win. For example, given the unaffordability and small size/low quality of dwellings available in London, American perfectly manicured suburbs with plenty of space and big open highways may start to look somewhat appealing.

In the end, it all depends on the actual reality of it - how busy the roads are, how easy it is to find parking, how clean/nice/empty/reliable the public transport is etc. Idealizing one option over the others as can be seen in this thread seems silly. If there is a "silver bullet", it is probably in decentralizing work more such that more people can walk/cycle to work while living in a nice village, while also having clean/fast/efficient public transportation available as well as a great road system to reach the more remote locations / get to places when a car is just more convenient.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#494

Post by cjf4 »

neuronic wrote: post #341
IloveHN84 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let be fooled by the "tourist impression". Staying for some days isn't the same as living in a place, involving commuting to work, bringing children to school, etc Every city looks nice as a Tourist, but then it's hard if you live there and in the false zone of the city (=farest away)

Spent 6 years in the US as a European. By far the worst part on a daily basis was the missing public transportation due to the enormous focus on cars. Many towns didn't even attempt to be accessible to anyone without a car. I sometimes waited for hours in NY state blizzards to catch a bus before I was able to afford a car. I walked 2-3 hours to a mall and to Walmart when all other students went home for break. Bus se…

The car industry influence played a role but is always overplayed in these kinds of discussions, and ignore equally if not more important factors.

-On macro scale, the US is bigger, more spread out, with tons of land, and there's something in the American psyche that pushes Americans to expand, settle, and use all of it.

-On a micro scale, and as a consequence of the first point, Americans are accustomed to homes that are much bigger, have yards, and are more adverse to sharing a wall with a neighbor. Sure there have been exceptions like tenements in NYC, but even in those cases those residents could wait to get their own Levittown cape cod in a residential subdivision.

-Finally, a ton of this growth happened at right after cars became mainstream and affordable, but before the long terms downsides of car based societies were well understood. Therefore, a huge majority of infrastructure investments were made on what people wanted (cars and space), and not public transit.

-Now, while many of the problems of car based societies are better understood, that doesn't nullify the often ignored benefits of car based societies. Also, for public transit to work at a massive scale, people would have increasingly do two things that Americans intrinsically hate: Move closer together and pay more taxes. There may be a growing population that finds that appealing, but the silent majority in this case is an enormous and entrenched one.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#495

Post by cjf4 »

noobermin wrote: post #346
neuronic wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spent 6 years in the US as a European. By far the worst part on a daily basis was the missing public transportation due to the enormous focus on cars. Many towns didn't even attempt to be accessible to anyone without a car. I sometimes waited for hours in NY state blizzards to catch a bus before I was able to afford a car. I walked 2-3 hours to a mall and to Walmart when all other students went home for break. Bus se…

There's an old conspiracy, although its accuracy is debatable, google the "General Motors streetcar conspiracy." Another potential possibility is many cities scrapped their streetcars for spare metal during WWII. Along with that, market forces and lobbying and policy by people like Robert Moses, the current form of America was created.

The market forces element is the one that people tend to ignore in these types of conversations. Americans couldn't wait to move out to the suburbs.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#496

Post by wozniacki »

DanBC wrote: post #406
wozniacki wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really implying a school in Croydon, a large town in south London is going to be functionally and qualitatively equivalent to say a school in Golders Green, an area in the London Borough of Barnet? [1][2] Equivalent in all the areas one might measure the attractiveness and potential of a school? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golders_Green edit:typo

You've linked to the wrong wikipedia article, and used the word "town", which leads me to think you don't understand London much. Is there any reason you linked to wikipedia articles about a part of London with a large Jewish population vs a part of London with a large ethnic minority population? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Borough_of_Croydon

I just realized that. Yes the one you linked is the one I meant to use in my example.

I meant to pick a town/neighborhood with rich inhabitants (per capita) and a town/neighborhood with not so well off inhabitants.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#497

Post by isostatic »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #485
isostatic wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All things being equal I'd rather take the train - you can read, work, watch TV The main benefit of driving is not having to wait for a specific train. From where I live in south cheshire, it's quicker to get the train into Manchester than drive (although quicker to drive to Stoke than train). That's with a 0930 arrival in Picadilly Gardens. Same to get to Cardiff, Birmingham and certainly London (2h15 to Euston, vs…

Virgin trains wants basically another 10-15 a month on top of your journey for internet and you can't take a bike on their trains without phoning ahead first. Cross country aren't much better. Phone internet doesn't work on the train typically. That combined with the travel sickness after each journey make the car much more appealing. I will never go back to using the train as long as I can legally drive. They are ju…

I use 4G tethering and works really well between Crewe and Manchester (well enough for uninterupted youtube streaming and ssh sessions). Virgin "pendilinos" have free wifi now too. Northern run on the Manchester-Stoke line and don't need bike reservations. YMMV.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#498

Post by kasey_junk »

noobermin wrote: post #352
oefrha wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As have been pointed out by multiple people, kids are perfectly capable of taking public transit themselves. Kids under ten might need to be accompanied by a guardian, but there are usually two parents in a household, and some grandparents will help, too. Caretakers can be hired in certain cases. Some family “pool” their kids together too, not unlike in the U.S. where parents would take turns to drive neighbors’ kids…

> As have been pointed out by multiple people, kids are perfectly capable of taking public transit themselves. This is another difference that intersects with other issues in America. In a car, your child is under your control . Moreover, adding to your following point of a child under ten being unaccompanied in public, no American parent would dream of letting their children go out alone and recently, this includes…

It is incredibly common for kids to be alone in cities in the US. I can look out my window right now and see 2 children playing in a park with no supervision.

On my train commute every morning there were school children who get off at my stop because it’s where their school is. Their rides happen at reduced fares as well.

The trope rings very false to me and seems to be about one particular demographic (white and suburban).

If there is an increase in over watching our children it’s because we’ve over indexed on cars, not the reverse.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#499

Post by namelosw »

JDiculous wrote: post #123

Spent the last 6 months in Seoul and the surrounding cities in Korea. Never needed a car. You can literally do everything without a car, everything is a short walk. I truly believe it makes a huge positive impact on happiness when you can just walk anywhere instead of having to drive. Also you'll notice that in Korea/Japan there are way more small businesses and things to do (eg. karaoke, cafes, etc) because people o…

I live in Beijing and I spend 20 mins riding share bike to work every day. I don't drive because I don't find it useful. I have a driving license but almost never used it, there are many, many people also having a license without driving cars.

Almost colleagues owning cars don't drive on workdays because the metro is good (crowed by less crowded than driving and parking).

It's not just one city like NYC, at least all moderate to major cities in China are friendly if you don't have a car.

I've been to SF and the silicon valley, and I'm pretty annoyed I almost cannot go anywhere without driving.

The difference might be related to how do people build the city, in order to make one way to suck less than another. In Beijing, it seems to be not driving suck less than driving.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#500

Post by hylaride »

camillomiller wrote: post #479
rexgallorum2 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your estimated costs are pretty average, but I found the €30k figure curious. Used cars are dirt cheap in Germany, and they are often in really good shape and well maintained compared to used cars in other countries. I occasionally drive a 20 year old Opel that was purchased 7 years ago for €2500. It works great. I ride my bike most of the time, but it's really handy to have a car to haul kids or heavy/bulky stuff.

If you have kids, especially more than one, a no-car city center is a nightmare. Even in Europe.

That very much depends on the city. I had no problem getting around Paris/Amsterdam/London/Rome when I was traveling with my friend's family (3 kids). A car would have been a bigger nightmare with traffic and parking and we weren't even staying in the central areas.

But it also depends on how and where you live and work specifically. If I lived in a many of the areas outside of the Périphérique in Paris, not owning a car would probably impact your overall quality of life, but I'd still not want to take it into the city.

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