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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#211
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let be fooled by the "tourist impression". Staying for some days isn't the same as living in a place, involving commuting to work, bringing children to school, etc Every city looks nice as a Tourist, but then it's hard if you live there and in the false zone of the city (=farest away)

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

How many kids do you have? Any more than one and car becomes necessary in my experience.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#212
post #33
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how it is in the USA but in France (and I suspect most old European cities) the richer people who can afford to live in the city center are generally in favor of removing cars because they either don't have a car or can afford to pay for a private parking spot while people who live in the suburbs and take their cars to work every day have to suffer the consequences. So you end up with this "class warfare…

Do people commute into Paris by car in relatively large numbers? Where on earth do they park? Certainly in the UK cities I've known people who live in the core are much less likely to own cars, but people from outside rarely commute in by car to the core because it's just too slow. Medieval city plans just don't suit cars, even where the walls were demolished to make a ring road. I used to joke that there was no way…

> someone showed me a 1960s plan that involved taking a corner off St John's.

That's to be expected if you get someone from Trinity to draw up the plan!

Cambridge is becoming an incredibly hostile place to get to and around in if you don't live in the city. Partly it's a function of the population growth, but it is pushing people like me to spend more in towns like Bury St Edmunds rather than deal with Cambridge.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard to learn how to drive. Otherwise not ~everybody would be able to do it. I don't think that self driving cars will replace all cars immediately. That makes little sense from CAPEX perspective, cars are fine for 5, 10, maybe 15 years. You'll not replace an okay car for the latest self driving vehicle, dumping the previous car to the junkyard. Rollout may take decades. And we still don't know when are they…

It's not hard to learn how to drive in a society where most people want to learn. A couple of decades after self-driving cars are commonplace there won't be any instructors working in cities, the rules will be very restrictive for what human drivers are allowed to do, and lessons will be astromonically expensive due to the low demand.

I think the world changes enough in a few decades that we can assume it will adjust to the new landscape.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#214

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

Houston is indeed utopia (at least for some), there are not enough resources on this planet to get a large house with pool to 7 billion people.

Pool and all the space in the world don't matter if you rarely use it or have friends/family over. When everyone is so distant, even if in the same city, getting together is harder. Being in a city with more places to meetup and more ways to get there just makes it more convenient and likely to have fun

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#215
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is effectively a solved issue though, isn't it? Even the given example of the Mariahilfer Str. still has road access and as per the wikipedia page "Für den Lieferverkehr ist die Zufahrt und das Halten bis 13 Uhr zulässig." (Access and halting for delivery of goods is allowed until 1pm). Any city off the top of my head with pedestrian-only inner city areas still allow delivery trucks until certain times. Since th…

I get that, but now that the mix of customer traffic has changed, the optimal usage of those spaces has changed. People that want to fill their car with goods in one trip will continue to do so, but it won’t be in the city centre. Perhaps all along they shouldn’t have, but it was possible/practical before. Now they will go to the city outskirts to buy larger/bulkier/more good. The sellers thereof will suffer and/or b…

> The sellers thereof will suffer and/or be replaced by car-free friendly businesses (restaurants, cafes, light-weight goods).

Not only those, the fans of bicycles and public transport also suffer when they have limited options for shopping at particular places that are only present in the outskirts. In Vienna, IKEA is now opening a store near this "Mariahilfer Straße" at Westbahnhof, where there's also a huge public garage and a huge shopping centre was built a few years ago - you could say that real shopping is moving where the cars can still go in the city centre, while the former shopping street is slowly turning into a tourist promenade with bars, clothes and souvenir stores.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#216
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are they the same stores? It's probably fine for the landlords, but if you're leasing storespace and selling bulk/heavy goods, or something so specialized that people from afar drive to you, you're going to have trouble. If you're running a restaurant or cafe, you're in a great situation. It's a solvable issue, but it may be ignored.

This is effectively a solved issue though, isn't it? Even the given example of the Mariahilfer Str. still has road access and as per the wikipedia page "Für den Lieferverkehr ist die Zufahrt und das Halten bis 13 Uhr zulässig." (Access and halting for delivery of goods is allowed until 1pm). Any city off the top of my head with pedestrian-only inner city areas still allow delivery trucks until certain times. Since th…

I think people tend to paint things in a strong dichotomy always (black and white). So it is either super car focused or pedestrians only. And if you want to reduce cars therefore you must be the proponent of a pedestrians-only solution.

In reality there are much more nuanced solutions. E.g. if you have a small street with people living in it and the majority of the streets traffic comes from cars taking a shortcut between two main roads, maybe closing that direct connection and creating a dead end is the better solution that boosts the atractivity of the whole street, while at the same time making it more friendly to pedestrians, locals, cyclists etc. Cars can still enter. They just have no reason to do so, except if they live there.

The only downside is the loss of a shortcut, which might have impacted traffic on the main roads negatively.

In traffic there are often situations were all involved sides win if you take something away or encourage certain uses while discouraging others. On other paradox occasions, everybody can lose, if you add more lanes to a street.

In case of Mariahilfer it might be still possible to deliver, but the attractivity as a pure transit street got reduced, simply by showing what the priority is. If this impacts other transit routes also in a positive way, I don’t see why Vienna should do more of this thing — especially if it is willing to win the title of “City most worth living in” also in the future.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#217
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let be fooled by the "tourist impression". Staying for some days isn't the same as living in a place, involving commuting to work, bringing children to school, etc Every city looks nice as a Tourist, but then it's hard if you live there and in the false zone of the city (=farest away)

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

Same here. Moved from Europe to SF. I missed taking walks and seeing plenty of things. Things are really quiet here.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#218
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having moved from somewhere with working public transportation to the United States (and having lived here for close to a decade), I can assure you it’s not tourist impression.

How many kids do you have? Any more than one and car becomes necessary in my experience.

Define “necessary”.

Of course I would agree it’s necessary in the U.S., but that’s saying very little.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#219

I'm glad this works for the people who live there and makes them happy. As for myself, I refuse to live in any city dense enough to even have a public transportation system.

In a lot of places, even 100 person villages have a regular bus system. This isn't about density, it's about infrastructure.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#220

I’m personally not a huge fan of driving everywhere. But I wonder whether HN’s view on this isn’t out of touch with the average middle class American’s. The average American commute is 48 minutes round trip, significantly shorter than France (71 minutes), Italy (65 minutes), or Spain (61 minutes): https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2_6_Time_spent_travelling... That’s mainly because Europe has higher public transit us…

Finnish anecdote: I commute 35km by bike and train in 60 minutes (round trip). By car, I estimate it would take at least 90 minutes. Train service is reliable and runs 6-10 times per hour between 6am and midnight.
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