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Long time nuclear waste warning messages

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Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#21

Post by 8bitsrule »

Don't see any way of succeeding at graphic representation of a silent, invisible, eventually deadly emanation.

Too much left-brain in most tries. The modern 'biohazard' symbol is not scary... nor is the ISO radiation sign. 'Skull and bones' is moreso.

Many old Hollywood films kept it simple with warning messages posted around territories ... heads on pikes, hanging skulls, that sort of thing. They say 'Enter here and you will likely die' pretty effectively.

Even George Pal's morlocks were scarier than that ISO sign. Looks like an ad for sunblock.

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#22

Post by _jal »

aeternus wrote: post #11
squirrelicus wrote: post #4

It's interesting how, when communicating with hypothetical future people in written form, we have to choose language we have the best hope of them understanding. A center of emanating energy that is dangerous to the body and kills. Really makes you empathize with religious writers trying to communicate often second hand divine truths that people thousands of years later will have to figure out without the understandi…

Seems like they are trying too hard, and actually made the message more cryptic than it needs to be. Why not say "nuclear" or "radiation"? It seems very unlikely that the entire species will completely forget about the concept of nuclear radiation.

This exercise is more talking to ourselves than the future. It is a sort of design fiction[1], attempting to cope with the concept of consequences that last much longer than the initiating actors' whole civilization.

That it isn't fiction is what gives it salience, and the requisite paternalistic 'talking down' to a pre-technical future aspect provides emotional and/or moralistic flavor, if you like that sort of thing.

Eventually, it turns into bike-shedding scary apocalyptic artworks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_fiction

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#24

Post by acidburnNSA »

greggeter wrote: post #5

Many Gen IV nuclear designs can use the 10K year waste fuel and turn it into 300 year waste. If you believe climate change is killing us, this is the answer. If you don't believe that but believe clean, free electricity in abundance is best for a developing world, then this is also the answer.

I'm the biggest proponent of Gen IV nuclear. But believe me that the level of partitioning and transmutation required to get to 300 year waste requires reprocessing processes of a sophistication that are contrary to the concept of "free" anything. In fact, there's SO much nuclear fuel on Earth and in the seawater, and seawater uranium extraction is getting cheap enough that it's now reasonable to envision world-scale nuclear fission without heavy reprocessing. Deep burn/modified once-through cycles or limited recycling can get you really far with this kind of resource.

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#26

Post by acidburnNSA »

hestipod wrote: post #7

I wonder who the primary audience is intended to be? I would think future societies at the point these sites could be lost (thousands of years per the article's suggested readability) to common knowledge would have tech to scan/detect such sites. Though its always possible for things to regress as a result of some disaster.

Post WWIII may certainly be regressed considering the multiple orders of magnitude more destructive firepower we built up in the Cold War. As Albert Einstein (allegedly) said: "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#27

Post by acidburnNSA »

inanutshellus wrote: post #6

The only use-case I can think of that isn't covered by either signage or words is discouraging its utility as a weapon. e.g. "There's something deadly buried here? Neat, I'll dig it up and throw it at my enemies!" Perhaps they'd consider it covered by saying "nothing of value is here"...?

Fun fact: during the Battle of the Bulge, some of the Manhattan Project scientists discussed dropping the radioactive Hanford waste just produced (as a byproduct to plutonium production) in the path of the Nazi tanks.

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#28

Post by lifthrasiir »

MrLeap wrote: post #17
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

>This place is a message... and part of a system of messages ...pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here. What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger. The danger is in a particular location... it…

I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful to try and design a Geiger counter that could last 10,000 years. I'm picturing a ring of large obelisks made out of some radio luminescent material. Actually it would probably be better if it changed between ugly colors rather than glowed. If it's pretty people would demolish it before the ribbon is cut. Have all your pictograms try and communicate that some color = you're goin…

> After about 100 meters towards the center of the exclusion zone, you need to store enough radioactive material, preferably near Geiger obelisks, that going there will kill you _very_ quickly, for 1000's of years. Quicker the better. People need to associate the deaths with the area!

Interesting idea, but people will gather radioactive material to prepare the suicidal attack. The cursed area therefore needs to be able to kill people without an ability to move the curse out of it by itself.

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#29

Post by hermitdev »

MrLeap wrote: post #17
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

>This place is a message... and part of a system of messages ...pay attention to it! Sending this message was important to us. We considered ourselves to be a powerful culture. This place is not a place of honor... no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here... nothing valued is here. What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us. This message is a warning about danger. The danger is in a particular location... it…

I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful to try and design a Geiger counter that could last 10,000 years. I'm picturing a ring of large obelisks made out of some radio luminescent material. Actually it would probably be better if it changed between ugly colors rather than glowed. If it's pretty people would demolish it before the ribbon is cut. Have all your pictograms try and communicate that some color = you're goin…

> I wonder if it wouldn't be more helpful to try and design a Geiger counter that could last 10,000 years.

You'd also need to design signage/language to last and transcend those same 10K years to indicate what that constant "blip blip blip" means.

Re: Long time nuclear waste warning messages

#30

Post by askvictor »

8bitsrule wrote: post #21

Don't see any way of succeeding at graphic representation of a silent, invisible, eventually deadly emanation. Too much left-brain in most tries. The modern 'biohazard' symbol is not scary... nor is the ISO radiation sign. 'Skull and bones' is moreso. Many old Hollywood films kept it simple with warning messages posted around territories ... heads on pikes, hanging skulls, that sort of thing. They say 'Enter here and…

I was just having the discussion with my students when discussing icon designs. As a kid I always thought the radiation sign was a fan; was mildly confused by suburbs/towns which had anti-nuclear signs up - what does this place have against fans?
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