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Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

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Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#151

Post by wolco »

lallysingh wrote: post #101
groundlogic wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12-20 years ago, one of my largest life goals was to work for Google. (It's not anymore. I found other fun and rewarding jobs.) I don't get why the Google management team allowed their team to get so... well, violently politicized. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but.. keeping politics out of the workplace worked very well for a very long time.

The whole country is rather politicized (some of it actually violent). Google doesn't force employees to pretend that's not the case. Maybe a good idea, maybe bad.

Having politics free zones like work is a good idea.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#152

Post by groundlogic »

edmundsauto wrote: post #128
groundlogic wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In hindsight.. it seems like it could become their downfall. It also seems so counter-productive for a company that basically controls large parts of the web traffic to become so politicized. What was Larry, Sergey and Eric thinking? Edit: Seems like I can't create new posts - I'm being rate limited. Editing this comment instead as a workaround. I think Google's stated mission ("to organize the world's information an…

Perhaps they couldn't stop it, or felt that tamping down on employee discussion would cost more than it would benefit? Or maybe they've realized that Google cannot be neutral? That's the thing about values -- if you won't stand up for them when there's a cost, what good are they?

> Perhaps they couldn't stop it

Pretty sure they could, at least early on. Come on, they had absolute power over company strategy. The most important people (their smartest developers, like Jeff Dean etc, by all accounts, didn't care much about stuff like this.)

> or felt that tamping down on employee discussion would cost more than it would benefit?

No-one apart from you is calling this tampering.

> Or maybe they've realized that Google cannot be neutral

Or maybe all of this bias is accidental because all they cared about was freedom, and while the two founders were away jetskiing, the company grew in a very particular political direction?

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#153

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

cdumler wrote: post #118
aiyodev wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the human resource’s department’s job to protect the company from liability. If they’re not protecting the company from renegade managers they’re not doing a very good job.

What makes you think the managers are being renegades? They know the company details that you don't know: we have too many women claiming maternity benefits, we have too many people with skill X and not enough Y, etc. Again, HR's job is to handle the needs of senior management, and only until then will HR act against a manager.

Your hypothesis is extraordinarily unlikely. Google has continuously expanded benefits for men and women going on parental leave over these last years. It would make no sense whatsoever for them to also systematically harass pregnant women out of the workforce. If they were concerned about the costs of maternity, they could just have expanded those benefits more slowly. That would have had dramatically more impact, at less cost, than harassing a woman here or a woman there out.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#154

Post by tenpies »

lallysingh wrote: post #101
groundlogic wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12-20 years ago, one of my largest life goals was to work for Google. (It's not anymore. I found other fun and rewarding jobs.) I don't get why the Google management team allowed their team to get so... well, violently politicized. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but.. keeping politics out of the workplace worked very well for a very long time.

The whole country is rather politicized (some of it actually violent). Google doesn't force employees to pretend that's not the case. Maybe a good idea, maybe bad.

But only Google is this outwardly politically aligned. You don't see these problems emerge at Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, or Netflix.

Google's culture is uniquely subservient to politics. The organization's mission is very clearly secondary to the employee's personal activism.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#155

Post by edmundsauto »

groundlogic wrote: post #152
edmundsauto wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they couldn't stop it, or felt that tamping down on employee discussion would cost more than it would benefit? Or maybe they've realized that Google cannot be neutral? That's the thing about values -- if you won't stand up for them when there's a cost, what good are they?

> Perhaps they couldn't stop it Pretty sure they could, at least early on. Come on, they had absolute power over company strategy. The most important people (their smartest developers, like Jeff Dean etc, by all accounts, didn't care much about stuff like this.) > or felt that tamping down on employee discussion would cost more than it would benefit? No-one apart from you is calling this tampering. > Or maybe they've…

> Pretty sure they could, at least early on

Maybe early on in Google. But to influence thousands of highly opinionated people, all with their own opinions, without negative side effects, is really difficult. Did you mean early on in the employees' efforts, or early in Google?

> No-one apart from you is calling this tampering.

Sorry for the confusion -- I mean "tamping" -- that any topdown attempt to force neutrality on employees when they are agitating for not-neutrality would have negative costs. (tampering is a different word, but it's an understandable mis-communication... darn English!)

> Or maybe all of this bias is accidental...

You could be 100% correct. I have no idea, it's a viable option. My point was to answer your original question of "what could they be thinking".

My objective was just to propose a few ideas about what they could be thinking. I 100% don't know, but I think what I said could fit the limited information we have.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#156

Post by drawkbox »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #117
nostrademons wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the theory behind it is that when you're dissatisfied with an organization, you have two options: Voice (speak up and hope to change things from within) or Exit (leave the organization and find or found a new one). And at least when I was there, ~5 years ago, Google executives really, really wanted you to choose Voice. Because the history of Silicon Valley is basically built upon talented engineers choosing E…

Also, "Voice" comes in two variants: Internally, or externally. Much more preferable for the company if employees complain on an internal board rather than Reddit, HN, or Blind.

Allowing "Voice" internally is a pressure release valve that is also stated inside the company as mentioned, so maybe issues can be fixed.

In a way it is a bit like some democracy in a company rather than the usual authoritarian/dictatorial workplaces we have where usually dissent and opinions against the borg direction is stifled and attacked by the vogons.

Democracy is also a pressure release valve that looks messy but doesn't blow up like authoritarianism does eventually. Better to let the proles, sharecroppers, and feudal peasants have their airing of grievances, fix if you can, if not find ways to route around the issues.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#157

Post by paulcole »

leereeves wrote: post #132
paulcole wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's code for anything that is unrelated to straight white males. Edit: Tell me I'm wrong lol.

Don't you see that you're reinforcing the image that "SJWs hate straight white males"?

Sorry if I wasn’t clear: Anyone who uses SJW as a carefully chosen pejorative is the hateful one in these situations.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#158

Post by Pfhreak »

groundlogic wrote: post #148
jacobsenscott wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as a "neutral" place. What's happening is you tend to align with the predominate views at your company, and anyone who doesn't keeps their head down. From you point of view it looks neutral, but actually other views are being repressed.

...no? I think you maybe don't get the whole "don't be political at work" thing.

I suspect the parent poster is pointing out that you might not be aware of political issues in your workplace because they don't impact you.

How is your access to a gender neutral restroom or shower facility? Do you have a quiet place to pray multiple times per day? If you need a place to breastfeed (not a restroom), is that something available? What about dilating post gender reassignment surgery? Does your workplace offer the same benefits to same sex partners? Do you have to take a badge photo, if so, what name gets used? Can you wear head coverings in your badge photo? Have you ever heard expressions like, "Let's see what's under the kimono" in a business meeting? How is wheelchair access to your site? Can I operate all the machines you use if I am blind?

All of these are 'political' issues that most people are blind to.

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#159

Post by Pfhreak »

paulddraper wrote: post #146
matthewmacleod wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a glib answer from a position of security. “Politics” is absolutely a core part of the workplace where it starts to affect your rights, those of your colleagues, and the actions your employer takes in support or opposition of these.

> This is a glib answer from a position of security. I'd love to know how you figured that one out. > “Politics” is absolutely a core part of the workplace where it starts to affect your rights I am only slightly exaggerating when I say that all politics affects your rights. Again, like religion, super important. But for a variety of reasons, the workplace makes a poor forum.

What do you suggest people do when workplace must intersect with politics. For example, you need access to a gender neutral restroom or shower facility?

Should you not advocate for that internally?

Let's say you are an ally for someone who needs an affordance like a gender neutral facility, should you not speak up on their behalf?

Re: Google Employee Alleges Discrimination Against Pregnant Women in Viral Memo

#160

Post by duaoebg »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #153
cdumler wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the managers are being renegades? They know the company details that you don't know: we have too many women claiming maternity benefits, we have too many people with skill X and not enough Y, etc. Again, HR's job is to handle the needs of senior management, and only until then will HR act against a manager.

Your hypothesis is extraordinarily unlikely. Google has continuously expanded benefits for men and women going on parental leave over these last years. It would make no sense whatsoever for them to also systematically harass pregnant women out of the workforce. If they were concerned about the costs of maternity, they could just have expanded those benefits more slowly. That would have had dramatically more impact, a…

Expanding benefits while simultaneously harassing those who take them gives the benefit of virtue signalling with less of the cost. Most people who receive harassment keep it to themselves as to be public about it is generally a career ender.
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