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Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

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81–90 of 145 posts

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#81
Very interesting article, my only real contention is on the point made in Mistake 4:

> You can see it was a gamble by considering if Light had been outside Kanto; since he would not see it live, he would not have reacted, and all L would learn is that his suspect was in that other 2/3 of the population, for a gain of only ~0.3 bits.

My understanding of L's plan (based on what he said in the broadcast) was that he intended to do several live broadcasts, one in each region, until he was caught. Lind L. Taylor was a death row criminal being offered a deal to survive, and would've gone along with doing several broadcasts. Additionally, even if they didn't do it live and simply recorded it there's no way that Light would've known it wasn't live and he would've acted in the same manner (and since Lind was in L's custody, L would've known if he died even if Light didn't).

At the time Death Note was written, mass internet communication wasn't as prevalent and so you wouldn't expect people to find out about events like the broadcast for at least a few hours (long enough to do broadcasts in each region). L probably hoped that Kira was in a less populated city since it would cut down on more bits of entropy (and I'd argue it would've been a better idea to start broadcasting to smaller cities first -- since it's more likely an event like this in a big city would be quickly broadcast to the rest of Japan).

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#82
> Worse, the deaths are non-random in other ways—they tend to occur at particular times! Graphed, daily patterns jump out.

I actually ran this kind of analysis on my use of Hacker News a couple of months back. It turns out that the patterns mentioned only really work if you have something that resembles a normal sleep schedule, which I clearly do not:

  12 AM  *********
  1 AM   ***********
  2 AM   *********
  3 AM   *******
  4 AM   *****
  5 AM   ****
  6 AM   ***
  7 AM   **
  8 AM   ****
  9 AM   *****
  10 AM  *********
  11 AM  ***********
  12 PM  ***********
  1 PM   ****************
  2 PM   *************
  3 PM   ***************
  4 PM   ************
  5 PM   **************
  6 PM   ***********
  7 PM   *******
  8 PM   **********
  9 PM   *********
  10 PM  ********
  11 PM  *******
(Each * corresponds to 25 comments; to my knowledge the vast majority of comments were made from PST)

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#83
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Death Note doesn't give the target any magic abilities, that the previously didn't have. > "Person flips a coin 100 times in a row, and gets heads every time". I'm pretty sure this would be interpreted as "The person has to flip coins until they have a 100 streak of only heads". This will obviously take a really long time, and the person might be driven insane before that. Similar things go for your other example…

>I'm pretty sure this would be interpreted as "The person has to flip coins until they have a 100 streak of only heads". I disagree. For example, Light has people die of getting run over a by truck. But the Death note does not interpret this is as "person repeatedly crosses the street until they get run over by a truck". Instead, events are (reasonably) manipulated such that a truck runs them over. Similarly, the coi…

My impression is that the Death Note would only manipulate luck to a certain degree -- ie, if the odds of even occurring are greater than 1/x, just make it happen. That would allow you to get hit by a truck crossing the street, but not allow you to win a coin flip 100 times (7.8886091e-31 odds). You'd probably have to experiment to figure out what the threshold was.

That being said... let's assume you're right. If the death note can manipulate odds to an arbitrary degree, you're thinking way too small right now. It would be much more efficient to write:

"X opens a laptop text editor, closes their eyes, and hits keys randomly. They open their eyes and discover they have accidentally written an algorithm for quickly factoring large numbers. They copy and paste this algorithm into an encrypted email to light.iskira@gmail.com, then die by jumping in front of a bus."

If X dies of a heart attack, you know your instructions didn't take and there's no algorithm for quickly factoring large numbers -- the problem was impossible. But then you can start modifying your query for, "an easy strategy for keeping cubits stable", or whatever you want to follow up with.

If I have a fast-track to get at almost any (possible) invention I can think of, I'm not going to waste my time factoring large numbers!

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#84
post #23

This is somewhat related to a thought experiment of mine. Suppose you had a means of transmitting information back in time - a one-node network that effectively could email to itself with a timestamp (in the past) being the message's "recipient." Suppose such a thing existed in the world today. Assume the individuals in possession of such a thing were very intelligent, very careful and very guarded about its use. Cou…

This plot is the basis of another (very good) anime called Steins;Gate actually.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#85
post #51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you possessed such a device then errors in your "predictions" would be indicative of another party using a similar device. As such, I assume multiple parties would soon discover each other, engage in an incomprehensibly complex time-battle, and there would suddenly ( instantaneously in all patched timelines) be only one such party. Furthermore, I imagine it would be very easy for such a party to accidently blunder…

As a fan of time travel movies, I'd watch this.

You may like the anime Steins;Gate then. The plot is based on the idea of sending a small amount of information back in time and changing the sender's present, and then finds that another organization has been using this and is trying to control the world with the power.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#86
post #23

This is somewhat related to a thought experiment of mine. Suppose you had a means of transmitting information back in time - a one-node network that effectively could email to itself with a timestamp (in the past) being the message's "recipient." Suppose such a thing existed in the world today. Assume the individuals in possession of such a thing were very intelligent, very careful and very guarded about its use. Cou…

You can write all of the advancements off as luck, inspiration, or drugs and blend in until some brain scanning technology is invented that could find out that you're being disingenuous with high confidence. By then, the idea of time travel might not be that exotic. Maybe you send back a way to fool that technology and then it's a cat/mouse game.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#87
post #51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you possessed such a device then errors in your "predictions" would be indicative of another party using a similar device. As such, I assume multiple parties would soon discover each other, engage in an incomprehensibly complex time-battle, and there would suddenly ( instantaneously in all patched timelines) be only one such party. Furthermore, I imagine it would be very easy for such a party to accidently blunder…

As a fan of time travel movies, I'd watch this.

Everyone in this thread should try Primer! Great little movie about a similar concept (smaller in scale though). Tries really hard to stick to its own rules.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm pretty sure this would be interpreted as "The person has to flip coins until they have a 100 streak of only heads". I disagree. For example, Light has people die of getting run over a by truck. But the Death note does not interpret this is as "person repeatedly crosses the street until they get run over by a truck". Instead, events are (reasonably) manipulated such that a truck runs them over. Similarly, the coi…

My impression is that the Death Note would only manipulate luck to a certain degree -- ie, if the odds of even occurring are greater than 1/x, just make it happen. That would allow you to get hit by a truck crossing the street, but not allow you to win a coin flip 100 times (7.8886091e-31 odds). You'd probably have to experiment to figure out what the threshold was. That being said... let's assume you're right. If th…

>If the death note can manipulate odds to an arbitrary degree, you're thinking way too small right now.

Right, what I feel might be the case is that the targeted output needs to at least be verifiable (hence see my second proposal). An argument could be made that unless the person has a way of verifying their action, there is no way to ensure that the desired outcome is achieved, so the instruction is invalid. (Separately, at least in your written example, it is possible for the person to be mistaken about the validity of their method!)

On the other hands, actions that are (machine) verifiable fall right within the scope of the Death Note (insofar as the verification instruments are also reliable, and verification happens within 23 days). I emphasize machine verifiable because the Death Note has various rules concerning other people, which I won't wade into. If "X starts his car and his car engine explodes" is valid, then so should "X keys a random string of inputs into a machine, machine returns True, then X dies."

So no we've limited the scope of DN-solvable problems to 23-day machine-verifiable problems. Now we just need to know what set of problems are 23-day machine-verifiable...

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember, the goal is fear, not specificity. I think that's where your proposal breaks down. Light is powerhungry and arrogant, but he's also very moralistic. A character that proritizes fear over accuracy would be a different character than Light. He wants to build a better, even perfect, world. And for that, he must have accuracy. Otherwise he's a mere tyrant, something he believes he is not. Of course, it's wort…

Is that really meant as the tragedy? I'm not sure to what extent it's really intended that way. Light's attitude to criminal justice is a distressingly realistic one in a country where 99% of arrests lead to confessions . Just a little light reading that's close at hand from a few years back: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2015/12/05/forced-to-confe... https://www.economist.com/asia/2015/12/03/silent-screams See a…

What happened with Ghosn?

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#90

> Worse, the deaths are non-random in other ways—they tend to occur at particular times! Graphed, daily patterns jump out. I actually ran this kind of analysis on my use of Hacker News a couple of months back. It turns out that the patterns mentioned only really work if you have something that resembles a normal sleep schedule, which I clearly do not: 12 AM ********* 1 AM *********** 2 AM ********* 3 AM ******* 4 AM…

As in the OP, it's pretty obvious when you are sleeping.
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