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Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

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Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#51

Post by alasano »

c22 wrote: post #49
Malic wrote: post #23

This is somewhat related to a thought experiment of mine. Suppose you had a means of transmitting information back in time - a one-node network that effectively could email to itself with a timestamp (in the past) being the message's "recipient." Suppose such a thing existed in the world today. Assume the individuals in possession of such a thing were very intelligent, very careful and very guarded about its use. Cou…

If you possessed such a device then errors in your "predictions" would be indicative of another party using a similar device. As such, I assume multiple parties would soon discover each other, engage in an incomprehensibly complex time-battle, and there would suddenly ( instantaneously in all patched timelines) be only one such party. Furthermore, I imagine it would be very easy for such a party to accidently blunder…

As a fan of time travel movies, I'd watch this.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#52

Post by arugulum »

hobofan wrote: post #46
arugulum wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we know the reason why Light says he can't do that is that "the person wouldn't know the name". But you're right in actuality that would allow for "person guesses the name, and is correct". And I think that is a loophole. Let me put this another way. I think the following would be considered a valid Death Note command. "Person flips a coin 100 times in a row, and gets heads every time". Now how is that different…

The Death Note doesn't give the target any magic abilities, that the previously didn't have. > "Person flips a coin 100 times in a row, and gets heads every time". I'm pretty sure this would be interpreted as "The person has to flip coins until they have a 100 streak of only heads". This will obviously take a really long time, and the person might be driven insane before that. Similar things go for your other example…

>I'm pretty sure this would be interpreted as "The person has to flip coins until they have a 100 streak of only heads".

I disagree. For example, Light has people die of getting run over a by truck. But the Death note does not interpret this is as "person repeatedly crosses the street until they get run over by a truck". Instead, events are (reasonably) manipulated such that a truck runs them over. Similarly, the coins would be manipulated to have 100 heads in a row.

>I also have the feeling (not backed up by lore, but I think it would fit in the world), that bigger manipulations would take more energy from the respective shinigami, so while a shinigami might be able to manipulate luck enough to make someone win the lottery, finding prime numbers would be too draining.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is true, but hey, what's a couple of Shinigami to save us some compute!

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#53

Post by arugulum »

michaelscott wrote: post #45
arugulum wrote: post #39

I would frame things a little differently. Light makes a lot of mistakes because the Death note is incredibly powerful and there would be almost no reasonable way for L to catch Light without Light making obvious mistakes (and would also make for a boring story). Undoubtedly, the biggest mistake Light makes is revealing the existence of the Death Note, and all the rules therein, which not only gives L (almost) all th…

I agree with this completely; Light makes up for what I would say is an inferior deductive ability by using a supernatural item with rules that defy ordinary logic and reason (L catches on early that such a tool must exist with his TV announcement stunt, but he can't possibly know the ruleset of such an item). The only way Near and Mello end up overcoming this advantage is by: (1) Mello obtaining a Death Note of his…

>I think the most under-utilized ability of the Death Note in the series is the ability to specify manner of death.

Absolutely. This ability is so significant that it completely overshadows the ability to kill people. If anything, the deaths should be treated as an unfortunate byproduct of being able to control people for 23 days in a row.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#54

Post by eximius »

alasano wrote: post #51
c22 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you possessed such a device then errors in your "predictions" would be indicative of another party using a similar device. As such, I assume multiple parties would soon discover each other, engage in an incomprehensibly complex time-battle, and there would suddenly ( instantaneously in all patched timelines) be only one such party. Furthermore, I imagine it would be very easy for such a party to accidently blunder…

As a fan of time travel movies, I'd watch this.

Sounds like Dark.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#55

Post by jandrese »

astine wrote: post #18
whatshisface wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you could write, "Before their death, the CEO of Gas Inc. will invent nuclear fusion, spread it to every market, and then live a long and happy life."

In the show this was limited to things that were both possible and that the target might realistically be able to do.

And really, it's what a death demon can do with some good old fashioned possession. So he can jump into a nearby truck driver and into the victim and have them meet in the middle of the road, but he doesn't necessarily know what the hell a prime number is.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#56

Post by squirrelicus »

arugulum wrote: post #39

I would frame things a little differently. Light makes a lot of mistakes because the Death note is incredibly powerful and there would be almost no reasonable way for L to catch Light without Light making obvious mistakes (and would also make for a boring story). Undoubtedly, the biggest mistake Light makes is revealing the existence of the Death Note, and all the rules therein, which not only gives L (almost) all th…

> Remember, the goal is fear, not specificity.

I think that's where your proposal breaks down. Light is powerhungry and arrogant, but he's also very moralistic. A character that proritizes fear over accuracy would be a different character than Light. He wants to build a better, even perfect, world. And for that, he must have accuracy. Otherwise he's a mere tyrant, something he believes he is not.

Of course, it's worth saying, the great archetypal tragedy of the story, and what makes it excellent literature, is that his goal is unacheivable. Humans are deeply imperfect and powerless to end evil completely. And the process of trying turns us into the worst of all monsters that can possibly exist.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#57

Post by jandrese »

gfosco wrote: post #9
lawn wrote: post #6

If it's true that privacy is dead, how come Satoshi is still unknown?

Satoshi hasn't posted in almost 9 years. If he was still active, it's much less likely he would still be unknown.

Maybe he was discovered and killed?

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#58

Post by downrightmike »

arugulum wrote: post #21

As a fun mental exercise, I've been wondering if the Death note could've been used to solve difficult computational problems. As far as I know, the following abides by Death Note rules, in particular we know that the Death Note is able to "manipulate" luck. Assume Bob Robert is an amateur mathematician, so this is something he would reasonably do and guess. "Bob Robert. Writes down a number X>=82,589,933 where 2^X-1…

Similar to what the Mule can do in the Foundation series, except that he is able to push a person to have insights and make leaps in thought that the person would not otherwise have, at the cost of the person wasting away. He got the anti-nuclear field device that way and almost the location of the second foundation group.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#59

Post by arugulum »

squirrelicus wrote: post #56
arugulum wrote: post #39

I would frame things a little differently. Light makes a lot of mistakes because the Death note is incredibly powerful and there would be almost no reasonable way for L to catch Light without Light making obvious mistakes (and would also make for a boring story). Undoubtedly, the biggest mistake Light makes is revealing the existence of the Death Note, and all the rules therein, which not only gives L (almost) all th…

> Remember, the goal is fear, not specificity. I think that's where your proposal breaks down. Light is powerhungry and arrogant, but he's also very moralistic. A character that proritizes fear over accuracy would be a different character than Light. He wants to build a better, even perfect, world. And for that, he must have accuracy. Otherwise he's a mere tyrant, something he believes he is not. Of course, it's wort…

>Light is powerhungry and arrogant, but he's also very moralistic. A character that proritizes fear over accuracy would be a different character than Light. He wants to build a better, even perfect, world. And for that, he must have accuracy. Otherwise he's a mere tyrant, something he believes he is not.

Somewhat. You're right that Light is extremely ambitious in his goal, but fear is also explicitly his chosen strategy. (Also, Light very clearly leans into being a tyrant. He says that eventually, he wants to start executing useless people as well.)

Another thing to consider is that (and I believe this happens in the manga), the news reporting itself responds to the Kira phenomenon, and starts publishing names accordingly. For us, let's think "Top 10 people in the world Kira should kill right now" listicles. The upside is that the information becomes more readily available. The downside is that you (our hypothetical, less-evil Light) may eventually want to exercise some discretion over who's being killed, and that would be where information gets leaked, and that's where I think this strategy might falter.

Re: Death Note: L, Anonymity and Eluding Entropy (2017)

#60

Post by the8472 »

thfuran wrote: post #34
Malic wrote: post #23

This is somewhat related to a thought experiment of mine. Suppose you had a means of transmitting information back in time - a one-node network that effectively could email to itself with a timestamp (in the past) being the message's "recipient." Suppose such a thing existed in the world today. Assume the individuals in possession of such a thing were very intelligent, very careful and very guarded about its use. Cou…

Assuming it's a reasonably high-bandwidth channel, very careful and guarded use seems much more boring than bootstrapping the singularity. So, hopefully you can find them and supplant them.

You very much would want to keep it guarded until you have secured your goal.

Bootstrapping the singularity is unlikely to be achieved with a single application of a time machine since you are only sending information to the past, not the technology itself.

And repeated application allows other actors to intervene during each iteration, which may result in the CTC settling into a different fixed point than the desired one.

You can't expect to own and use a time machine and be left alone while doing so.

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