This is why we have mass shootings, just saying. People taking things away from other people. I have a feeling this will lead to more shootings.
What was unfairly 'taken away' from these recent (Gilroy, El Paso, Dayton) mass shooters?
8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
711–720 of 1001 posts
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#712My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…
Your argument effectively says: 'people are too stupid to be trusted with their freedom'. I get that this is an unpopular opinion, but bad things will happen if people are to be free.
Back in the 90's I think ours was the popular opinion. It's gross to see it fade so fast.
I get companies taking a stand for who they accept as a customer. It makes me feel really icky when I see suggestions that the first amendment get even more asterisks next to it.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#713Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Popper's tolerance criteria, by contrast, seems clearcut What is that criteria? Because I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant. Would you agree that saying that a baker in Colorado must make a cake for a gay wedding is intolerant of the baker's belief? Because I'm certain a sizeable proportion of the US population would agree that it is intolerant.
> I can easily see people disagreeing on what is and is not intolerant Not in the subject at hand. I think pretty much everyone reasonable agrees that "kill the {jews,muslims,hispanics}" (once more, folks, this was the THIRD ethnic massacre advertised on 8chan!) is intolerant, no? Can't we start there?
I'm not sure we can because we can't even equally apply such philosophies or even laws modern day. For example, consider what TERFs consider acceptable and unacceptable concerning acceptance of trans individuals. Or consider the violent rhetoric aimed at the US president by prominent figures (at least enough to have appearance on TV, which is far more prominent than most of the posters here). Or protests against the rich. Or the views of what should happen to really bad people in prison. Or calling certain attractions as mental disorders (granted, they were labeled as such until recently) despite the newest research and the calls to lock such people up.
And what about cases where intolerance of intolerance is viewed as unacceptable because it can be confused with general intolerance. For example, take someone who wants to reduce/end immigration of groups that might support the execution of certain minority groups being confused with people who want to reduce/end immigration of those same groups for less agreeable reasons?
Even something as simple as "The Future is Female" has roots in a ideology of killing (most) men.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#714We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. What 8chan is doing is exactly the same, minus the Islamist part, yet there's hypocrisy in how they're treated vs e.g. the social media wing of ISIS. These people are trying to kill as many of us as possible. In no way should society accept it. It's simple societal self-defense. Ro…
> We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. I certainly would tolerate those sites. Free speech arguments aside, you can't kill the hydra, but you can severely degrade intelligence operations watching that hydra. Best case the bad guys all end up on sites already being surveilled, worst case they slip under the radar. We h…
That makes sense when the hydra is just quietly plotting. But what about if the site is the hydra's head-growing organ, i.e. radicalization platform? Disrupting recruitment seems like a viable strategy against hydras of all sorts.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#715Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…
The 'chans seem almost like a leaderless cult. I've also seen people get completely sucked into them in this really honestly creepy way. I suppose it's like a subculture but minus virtually everything positive like socializing with real human beings and having real experiences.
There are definitely leaders on the chans. The site operators know who log in the most, post the most, and what they post. This sort of info is inherent to running a message board. Moot was upfront about this when he ran 4chan, and he cooperated with law enforcement when they came looking for specific people.
The idea that these movements are leaderless collectives is part of their propaganda and should not be passed on without skepticism.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#716Earlier quoted context omitted.
Freedom of speech sucks because you're exposed to every asshat's opinion... but the alternative is worse.
Is the present alternative, where sites aren't allowed to keep existing (or, assuming they find a new host, "have to switch hosts a few times") after encouraging three ethnic massacres, really worse? Is that specific line really going too far?
Do you really want to give Trump the power to choose what is allowed to be said and what isn't?
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#717Earlier quoted context omitted.
The truth is that information does not radicalize people - censorship does. That's why the channers are as radicalized as they are - they've been censored everywhere else. Censor their last remaining outlets and you will increase violence by orders of magnitude. If ethno-nationalists are not allowed to make their political case with speech, what alternative would they have but violence? You obviously can't change the…
I don't think that is how they come about. It is about recruitment and ideals and how they spread not about being banned on other platforms. If they could discuss saving the white race with violence on reddit or hackernews nothing would change more than they would have more potential recruits.
At least something else would change. internal conversation based on uniform agreement would become impossible.
If 1% of the people on a site agree with you, you will have an harder time memeing with your buddies undisturbed.
Whether in practice the tradeoff is worth it, is another topic.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#718I’m old enough to remember when Howard Stern, as quaint as that seems today, was considered one of the greatest threats to civilization and had to be “de-platformed” before he could successfully destroy society - and the reasoning they used against him was _exactly_ the same as this reasoning: “he, himself (8chan, itself) is not going out and doing horrible things, but he’s encouraging people to go out and do horribl…
I'm on the record here defending /r/The_Donald. I'm even on the record saying I didn't think it should be quarantined and that I don't think it should be banned in the future. It takes a lot for me to wonder if something actually should be censored. I certainly wouldn't have been on the side of censoring Howard Stern. Radicalizing terrorists to such an extent that they actually go through with it -- multiple times --…
At that point, it doesn't sound like freedom of speech is the problem. Rather, this sounds like conspiracy to promote and further the attempts of mass murder for the intent to cause terror.
That being said, I grew up reading TOTSE, which might by this conversation's context in today's world, also sound like a source of the same.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#719This boasts well for cloudflare and the potential IPO in September.
Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service
#720Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine an alternate scenario. Say the major tech companies get fed up with Elizabeth Warren's calls to regulate them. Facebook removes all her groups. Cloudflare shuts down her websites. Youtube removes her videos. Google only leaves anti-Elizabeth Warren search results up, etc. Basically a major presidential candidate is completely locked out of having any presence on the Internet whatsoever. Would your reaction be…
This is false equivalence. Imagine if I could support a company when they help take down websites breeding hate speech and terrorists - and not support that same company if they interfered with an election.
No, they aren't equating mass shooting and political candidates. They are responding to the assertion that political ideology isn't a protected class.
If you want to defend the 1st amendment rights of companies to choose their customers, you must apply that across the board, or suggest the laws be changed.
If companies can exercise their 1st amendment rights to shut down political ideology in this instance (and if you think that's fine), then to be consistent you need to defend it elsewhere. Shutting down political opponents, choosing which political ads to run, choosing which investigations to allow in search results, etc. And censoring Elizabeth Warren is a perfectly valid example of how companies could exercise their rights, if indeed you think those rights should exist.