8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#401

Post by zamfi » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

Smithalicious wrote: post #215

This once again goes to show that you can do nothing illegal and still be virtually locked out of the internet. The viewpoint that "it's okay to kick 8chan off the internet" is not consistent with the viewpoint that "the internet should be neutral infrastructure". Take from that what you will. People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platf…

> People are doing the "yada yada not entitled to a platform" thing, but the distinction between free speech and having a platform is meaningless in reality. It's like saying "you can say anything you want, but we won't let you use the atmosphere to propagate the sound waves".

But the size of the platform is commensurate with the tolerability of the speech, right? No one is preventing you from standing in a public place making whatever objectionable claims you want. But reddit/facebook/cloudflare/whoever don't have an obligation to let you use their platform to publish it if they don't like it.

This is certainly not a meaningless distinction.

In the age of print media, some random guy's fringe opinions were not "required to be published" -- you couldn't even buy a classified ad espousing objectionable content in large publications. No "ban" required.

> We now live in a society where it is acceptable for private companies to essentially completely ban individuals from exercising their free speech

We have always lived in such a society. And it's not "private companies" it's people. Some person makes this decision.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#402

Post by tdb7893 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #370

Meekro wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Little known fact about the phrase "fire in a crowded theater": it was coined in a criminal case against a man who was distributing leaflets criticizing the draft during World War 1. The Supreme Court upheld his conviction by comparing those leaflets to "shouting fire in a crowded theater" -- even though most readers here would agree that those two things are nothing alike. I think there's a lesson in that: when we t…

It's never just used for the original case either. Now that 8chan is down why not every other site with a subset of (violent?) racist users? By doing something about one and not doing anything about another, is Cloudflare not basically giving their ideology a greenlight to exist? This is the type of backwards anti-intellectual thinking that will seep into the decision making. "Slippery slopes" are a cliche for a reas…

The problem for 8chan wasn't having bad users, every place has those, it was the specific way which it enabled them. Reddit or Facebook make effort to take down extremist threats, which puts them in a different league altogether. I'm fine with taking down places that enable them in that way and it hasn't seemed to have led to the slippery slope you are worried about so far.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#403

Post by dr_dshiv » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #261

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…

I'm interested in how that can be the case. Do you mind sharing some more details of how normal people can go off the deep end through their experiences on the sites?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#404

Post by mc32 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

api wrote: post #347

tepidandroid wrote: post #139

My opinion is that freedom of speech is a fine ideal to strive for, but it relies on having a stable society with some minimum level of education (moral and philosophical too, not just the technical kind). It requires people who are able to fully parse the implications of what they are hearing to make sound and rational judgements on the rejection of an idea or the embrace of it. It creates a moral duty for the peopl…

This isn't censorship though. It's private companies refusing to host something. Nobody has been arrested for speech and there are no laws prohibiting speech that isn't overtly and specifically threatening or otherwise violates the "fire in a crowded theater" test.

What if one day the government decides it wants to get in the business of offering ‘basic hosting’ for everyone. Would we say, well, no we can’t sensor that, that would be government censorship?

My point is I don’t think evaluating it on government/private business is very helpful in determining whether something should be allowed or not.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#405

Post by g00s3_caLL_x2 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

alanr wrote: post #389

g00s3_caLL_x2 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://dailycaller.com/2015/10/12/remember-the-2007-harvard... It's interesting that the link that was @ Harvard with a pdf of the results (that Harvard published...) is now a broken link. Here is a working copy: https://www.garymauser.net/pdf/KatesMauserHJPP.pdf Gary Mauser who is also a Candadian criminologist. Interesting indeed. https://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/harvard-flaw-review/

1. Snopes is a well known leftist hotbed and anything they print should be taken with a grain of salt as it's not unbiased.

They are caught up in a legal dispute that is still carrying on.

Linking something to them is no better than a fortune cookie.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2016/12/22/the-dai...

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#406

Post by kaolti » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

s9w wrote: post #391

kaolti wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea. I find it quite ironic that HN of all places is generally speaking supportive of this. I do think though that the internet is kind of a different game though. I don't think anything can be banned altogether. People will always find a way. Ultimately we'll just end up creating new anonymous and distributed services where we can talk freely and corporations (lol) and governments can't dictate what is acceptable.

The pace has quickened though. The big corporations are all coordinated now. Hosters, domain registrars, other infrastructure, payment processors, Traditional and Social Media... everyone is locked in and blindly banning everyone who isn't theirs

True, I'm just saying you can't stop people talking. Nature always balances out one way or another.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#407

Post by metamet » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #261

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…

Just look at the absurdity of Qanon. This troll gone long [1] has affected real people and real relationships [2].

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/how-three-conspiracy-...

[2] https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a22664244/qanon-boyfri...

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#408

Post by beefield » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

jolmg wrote: post #175

nilkn wrote: post #4

I've generally been on the free speech side of this debate, as some of my previous comments on HN will show. With 8chan, I legitimately don't know what my opinion is. I've read it before, and I spent a few hours reading it this weekend, and it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists. I'm not referring to the simple use of racial or ethnic slurs -- of course this…

I'm not really that well informed of 8chan, but bringing it down, while practical, doesn't seem like the ideal solution. Isn't it just like covering your eyes and pretending the problem isn't there? The problem doesn't sound like it's 8chan, but rather these people and their ideologies. If 8chan was brought down, they'll just find another hub to congregate, but now we don't know where to reach them to talk. I thought…

> but rather these people and their ideologies.

I think it is rather strong[1] implied assumption here that places like 8chan can't change peoples' ideologies.

[1] If you ask me, the assumption is wrong.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#409

Post by vernie » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

buildzr wrote: post #105

CydeWeys wrote: post #76

We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. What 8chan is doing is exactly the same, minus the Islamist part, yet there's hypocrisy in how they're treated vs e.g. the social media wing of ISIS. These people are trying to kill as many of us as possible. In no way should society accept it. It's simple societal self-defense. Ro…

> We wouldn't tolerate the existence of an Islamist site that glorified and helped perpetrate mass incidents of terror against our society. Speak for yourself, I would. I've downloaded and distributed ISIS propaganda videos before out of sheer intrigue. Just because someone says something you don't like doesn't mean you should ban it. Of course, this will be downvoted to hell because this is a hot topic at the moment…

Damn that's cool as hell. Maybe you have some balisong tricks you'd also like to show me?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#410

Post by lr4444lr » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:19 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #15

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the deaths of others your right to say it." How many free speech absolutists have "skin in the game", or whatever? Every alternative to censorship suggested always puts the burden on the victimized. Like, "if you debate it in public you will defeat these bad ideas". Few who are free speech absolutists roll up their sleeves and volunteer to take the action they presc…

So why don't we continue down the slippery slope and criminalize, like the Chinese do, speech that generally disrupts social harmony? How will you tangibly stop us from sliding down that slope, the absolutists have ever right to ask of you.