Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#31

Post by j_baker » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:05 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #19

j_baker wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then what is your argument? Before you seemed to imply that billion-dollar ideas are a dime a dozen. Anyone can have them. But good execution is difficult to come by. Now you seem to be agreeing with (or at least aren't arguing) the ultimate conclusion that I come to in my last comment which is that good ideas are rare. Whether anyone can have them or not is kind of a moot point if very few people actually do have…

No, I'm not saying they are rare. I'm saying this: 1. Everyone is capable of having a billion-dollar idea 2. Not everyone will actually have such an idea 3. Such ideas are still a dime a dozen because even if only 10% of the world population has such an idea, that's still 700 million such ideas. That's a lot. 4. It's difficult to prove that an idea was a billion-dollar idea and the only way of proving is likely to ei…

This is a much better argument than your original one, but it's still off. Is there 7 million of any man-made things that are worth a billion dollars? I would argue that if something is worth a billion dollars, it's necessarily rare. It sounds like you mean to say "bright" ideas rather than billion dollar ideas.

But besides that, it takes more than sheer numbers to make the argument you're making. Seven hundred million ideas is a lot, but it's nothing compared to the 6.3 billion bad ideas out there.

You are correct in saying that it's difficult to distinguish good ideas from bad ideas. So people tend to get bitten by one of the many bad ideas out there and then throw their hands in the air and say "Ideas are worthless!"

Personally, I think that good ideas take far, far more work and intelligence than you're acknowledging. Even if everyone can have good ideas, and good ideas are common, it takes work to develop a good idea into one that is worth executing.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#32

Post by j_baker » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:09 AM UTC

nlwhittemore wrote: post #14

kls wrote: post #3

I really do love the idea guy, they rail and rail "hey I am worth something" but the fact remains they are worth very little. Lets say for example I decided to start a company, I have a good group of guys that can do anything and we have capital. We don't need an idea to form a company, we could start a fabrication shop or a coin laundry and potentially profit just as much as venturing off and building a new and nove…

My problem with this argument is that it positions an "idea" person as static and fixed in time rather than dynamic and evolving. Over the life time of a startup, the idea becomes less about the initial spark and more about the way things evolve. Data can drive lots of that, for sure, which is why things like lean startup are so valuable. But what about the big decisions about where to go next? What's your next produ…

I agree with you 100%. Maybe it's better to call them a "concept person" rather than "idea person". Ideas are fleeting. Concepts need to be refined and fleshed out.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#33

Post by nikz » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:11 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #27

nikz wrote: post #4

It's very interesting to note the backgrounds of the various people involved in this debate. http://www.linkedin.com/in/nathanielwhittemore would lead me to believe Nathaniel is not a "code"/execution person (I could be wrong, obviously). Whereas the people on the other side of the debate seem to be largely execution guys - coders or self-styled "product" guys (YCombinator, Eric Ries). It's almost a tautology - the e…

> It's almost a tautology - the execution guys say the execution is most important, the idea guys think it's all about the idea. Isn't that opposite of what you'd expect? I'd expect in general for people to think their part is the easy part, and the other part is the hard part. After all, presumably that's why the execution guys can't come up with the ideas, and the idea guys can't come up with the execution. If the…

I think there's a more succinct explanation of this somewhere, but I think people usually overvalue their own contribution whilst simulataneously undervaluing that of others (see: http://books.google.com/books?id=YywIHNBn_YEC&lpg=PA147&...).

So perhaps it's the cynic in me, but I would expect people to be justifying their own importance. I do agree with you though - it should be the reverse!

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#34

Post by shkb » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:23 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #29

j_baker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. -Einstein If there's one thing working in software development has taught me, it's that simple != easy. Simple ideas are usually the best because you can build so many other ideas on top of them.

Words fail me in trying to explain how painfully difficult it is to try to explain "simple" concepts to folks who think some specific problem is hard and, therefore, has to be really complex/involve huge hurdles/etc. Not that it's really as simple as it seems to me, because that elegant solution ...well, never mind. (Prepares to regret even bothering to try to comment on it.) Anyway, thanks for noting this.

You shouldn't regret demonstrating your point. For some reason it is difficult to communicate 'simple' concepts. Only guess I can manage is the simple solution makes sense either after truly understanding the entire problem, or if it's the first thing you're told after the problem.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#35

Post by phlux » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:25 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #19

j_baker wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then what is your argument? Before you seemed to imply that billion-dollar ideas are a dime a dozen. Anyone can have them. But good execution is difficult to come by. Now you seem to be agreeing with (or at least aren't arguing) the ultimate conclusion that I come to in my last comment which is that good ideas are rare. Whether anyone can have them or not is kind of a moot point if very few people actually do have…

No, I'm not saying they are rare. I'm saying this: 1. Everyone is capable of having a billion-dollar idea 2. Not everyone will actually have such an idea 3. Such ideas are still a dime a dozen because even if only 10% of the world population has such an idea, that's still 700 million such ideas. That's a lot. 4. It's difficult to prove that an idea was a billion-dollar idea and the only way of proving is likely to ei…

but youre using the population of the globe - try scaling that back to our sector a bit, and assume that there are a fraction of a % of the population involved in tech, and in a position to execute.

You're attributing the ability/capability and access to requisite resources to people who will never have such access/resources.

So, even looking at the overall population of the bay area - with the high % of tech people we do, it still is only a fraction of the ~7 million people here.

So, lets assume that 20% of the 7M people in the valley are in tech and actually pursuing this billion dollar idea - and I still think your assumptions are off. with 1.4 million people in tech, we certainly are not seeing as many ideas as you would suggest.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#36

Post by jeromec » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:27 AM UTC

phlux wrote: post #30

jeromec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one is so capable of building something, why haven't you built XYZ and sold it for many millions already? Because simply building something doesn't equal success. Other factors are involved, such as potential need for capital, marketing etc. I would not say ideas are worth zero -- at least not without qualifying/explaining that statement. [1] I believe it's more accurate to say ideas are worth very little -- usual…

I agree, my whole point is that the Idea cannot be separated from execution, and execution cannot be separated from idea. They both can be objectively measured - but they are linked.

Well, yes, I agree that every business started as an idea. Everyone needs a starting point to act on, and that's what ideas are, starting points. However, I could have an idea to open a donut shop, and turn that into a profitable business even though there is nothing revolutionary or novel about such an idea. So, yes, you need both, but the thing to realize is that ideas will vary greatly in how much value they can provide to a venture. And unfortunately the only way to find out how much is to do the hard work of executing on the idea.

If developers are so much more valuable than ideas - why isnt every single developer building something amazing?

I find this a horribly unfair comparison. One can easily sit and dream up 100 ideas in a day, but one can't develop 100 projects in a day. If one could do such effectively I'm sure that you would find many more developers reaping rewards from their actions. Success is often about a hit / miss ratio.

On the other hand developers can generate value fairly easily. Let's say a developer decides to go out and build websites for local businesses. Again, nothing revolutionary here, yet there is certainly value that can be created by executing and with near limitless potential. Execution is what pays dividends. And as one would expect, it's what is hardest.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#37

Post by Mz » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:29 AM UTC

shkb wrote: post #34

Mz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words fail me in trying to explain how painfully difficult it is to try to explain "simple" concepts to folks who think some specific problem is hard and, therefore, has to be really complex/involve huge hurdles/etc. Not that it's really as simple as it seems to me, because that elegant solution ...well, never mind. (Prepares to regret even bothering to try to comment on it.) Anyway, thanks for noting this.

You shouldn't regret demonstrating your point. For some reason it is difficult to communicate 'simple' concepts. Only guess I can manage is the simple solution makes sense either after truly understanding the entire problem, or if it's the first thing you're told after the problem.

Well, in this case, I am specifically thinking of the example of getting myself well when doctors told me it could not be done. I think doctors (and the rest of the world) focus on the really complicated and convoluted tertiary (and whatever "fourth" would be called) effects of not addressing the real problem for years and years and years. I found that addressing the real problem at it's root is, conceptually, not terribly complicated. But then trying to understand/explain/execute...yadda yadda....gets pretty complicated at times. But it's really a very simple idea: I have a genetic disorder. We know what malfunctions in my body at the cellular level. Address THAT appropriately and aggressively, and a lot of the really complicated secondary, tertiary (etc) problems just magically disappear.

This idea goes over so well that I get called a liar, charlatan and snakesoil salesman to my face. And moderators side with the folks who attack me.

Welp, time to work on a webcomic or some such and let folks who think the problem is just too freakin hard to resolve keep raising big bucks for the CF foundation. It seems to be okay to monetize an entertainment site. :-D

Later.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#38

Post by lwhi » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:41 AM UTC

I think this article involves quite a lot of extraneous words .. in my opinion only the last three paragraphs say something interesting.

--

Who is truly saying that ideas are worthless? It's blatantly obvious that ideas and execution are two sides of the same coin.

An 'ideas' person coming to the table with an 'idea' (rather than resources or talent) is generally berated is because talk is cheap. Execution is generally what's lacking - so it stands to reason that people are primed to focus on getting things done.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#39

Post by erikpukinskis » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:44 AM UTC

I think even good ideas are worthless. The thing is, bad ideas are worse than worthless.

PageRank was a good idea, but it wasn't worth anything until they built Google. It was a good idea because it offered a solid foundation on which to build value.

Your bad idea might cause you to waste years of your life. Not only can you not sell it for anything, but you could pour resources into it only to see them burn up like an incinerator.

Aim for worthless. "Worthless" and "Won't screw you" is a good place to start.

Re: Let’s End the Myth that Ideas Are Worthless

#40

Post by tgflynn » Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 12:54 AM UTC

livejake wrote: post #21

tgflynn wrote: post #2

I tend to be someone who would emphasize the importance of execution relative to the importance of ideas, however I certainly don't believe that ideas don't matter. Ideas have value to the extent that they are coupled with excellent execution. One without the other is worthless but combined they have value. Because of this interaction simplistic statements such as "ideas are valuable" or "ideas are worthless" are bot…

I would say the value of an idea is inversely related to the difficulty to execute the idea. The idea for the million dollar homepage was extremely valuable because the execution of the idea wasn't too technically difficult. There are plenty of freelancers who could implement that idea. Same with the idea for ChatRoulette and Groupon. If an idea is really difficult to implement, such as a better Google, then the idea…

But if the idea is easy to implement than anyone will be able to copy that idea and the value will tend to zero.

My strategy is the opposite - take ideas that are often simple to state but whose execution is so complex as to tax the limits of the human mind. Then if I succeed I shouldn't have to worry much about competition (at least for a couple of years).