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The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

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Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#51

Post by notus »

jraines wrote: post #33
IshKebab wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are programmers doing 60 hrs of work a week? Yes, if you count planning, talking about work to be done, thinking about work to be done, commuting (s/buying groceries, shuttling kids), mentoring, dealing with other people’s complaints & personal issues, dealing with red tape (forms to be signed, reports to review & give feedback on), etc, etc, etc So, no then.

So, yes. Unless you are very junior, you 1) have to do those things 2) are paid for the time spent doing them 3) will not keep your job long if you simply neglect them or refuse to do them I'm honestly baffled by these responses.

I'm very senior and I only work about 30-40 hours a week max. It's called work/life balance.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#53

Post by WillyF »

anm89 wrote: post #2

"Over the decades, as versions of this housewife’s setup have eliminated dining rooms, pass-throughs, and farmhouse tables, the open-concept kitchen, centered around an island visible from all sides, has become not a labor-saving device but a stage on which (mostly) women are forced to perform." I gave up here. This is so stupid that I'm not sure what is the premise that I should critique. Also Im a guy who cooks in…

I stopped at the same exact point.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#54

Post by PhasmaFelis »

bsder wrote: post #37
DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an excellent book about the history of domestic technology called "More work for mother." It details how the more domestic tech we created, the more work shifted from the man of the house to the lady of the house and standards were raised Three hundred years ago, full-time wives did about 60 hours/week of housework. Today, with all our modern appliances, they still do about 60 hours/week of housework. In most…

> Three hundred years ago, full-time wives did about 60 hours/week of housework. This is a woeful underestimate before labor saving machinery. Here is a talk about the $3500 Shirt and the fact that women spun thread in any idle time: https://www.sleuthsayers.org/2013/06/the-3500-shirt-history-... Here is a Hans Rosling visualization of wealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo I remember a story about histo…

I agree in general, but just a nitpick: When the $3500 Shirt article first went around in 2013, I saw several complaints that it was describing a very high-quality shirt. Typical peasant work wear was still very labor-intensive, but took a fraction of the time described.

I see the article says the math was updated in 2016, though, so I don't know how true that is now. And obviously that was only a part of a woman's overall workload, anyway.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#55

Post by pixl97 »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #27
anm89 wrote: post #2

"Over the decades, as versions of this housewife’s setup have eliminated dining rooms, pass-throughs, and farmhouse tables, the open-concept kitchen, centered around an island visible from all sides, has become not a labor-saving device but a stage on which (mostly) women are forced to perform." I gave up here. This is so stupid that I'm not sure what is the premise that I should critique. Also Im a guy who cooks in…

I think you're focusing too much on the women part? I see it as criticising the stage aspect: instead of being able to be secluded and focus on the task at hand in a practically small space, you are instead performing in a space visible to everyone which is much too big to be good for the actual task.

Much too big? Have you ever cooked for more than 5 people? Ya, maybe a gigantic layout isnt great for family dinners in the evening, but the moment you have a party it provides a great space to prep and layout finished foods.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#56

Post by mcv »

notus wrote: post #51
jraines wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, yes. Unless you are very junior, you 1) have to do those things 2) are paid for the time spent doing them 3) will not keep your job long if you simply neglect them or refuse to do them I'm honestly baffled by these responses.

I'm very senior and I only work about 30-40 hours a week max. It's called work/life balance.

I do the same thing. I work 4 days a week, to spend one weekday (as well as the weekend, of course) with the kids.

Still, my wife regularly points out that I again forgot to do the laundry on that day off, and most of the time she still cooks that day. I want to, but still haven't fully picked up my share of the household work. And the worst part is that she still has to point this out to me.

I do better than most men and am still falling short.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#57

Post by mcv »

goto11 wrote: post #48
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #28

When the author mentioned the “messy kitchen” I thought it was a joke. Now I realise, as a European, that American house design is just absurd form over function. If you need a second, practical kitchen to deal with your main kitchen not being usable for its ostensible purpose then something is horribly wrong.

The idea of a "messy kitchen" certainly exist in Europe, see Scullery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scullery It is not a new invention.

In NL we've got the "bijkeuken". Modern homes rarely have them, but old farm houses almost always do.

Our new house incidentally does have one, which is indeed messy, and mostly used to store kitchen equipment we rarely use, as well as all the kitchen machinery, including the water kettle and coffee maker, that we don't want in plain sight. Apart from making tea and coffee, we don't do any actual work there, though. The real kitchen is still messy, because that's where the real cooking happens.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#58

Post by Merrill »

A century ago most housewives were farm housewives. The housewife on a pre-electric, pre-running water farm could not have spent 60 hours/week on what is now "housework", since considerable time had to be devoted to caring for the chickens; collecting and packing eggs; planting, weeding, harvesting the garden; canning vegetables and fruits; helping with the milking; helping with butchering chickens, pigs, and steers; etc.

On the other hand, multi-generational households were common, maiden-aunts came to stay and help, and neighborhood girls could be hired when needed. Neighboring housewives helped out when the threshing crew arrived and a dozen hungry men had to be fed a good meal.

Baths were Saturday night and clothes were washed Mondays for the simple reason that greater frequency was impractical, since water had to be carried from the well and heated on the wood stove.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#59

Post by cmiles74 »

anm89 wrote: post #23
DoreenMichele wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an excellent book about the history of domestic technology called "More work for mother." It details how the more domestic tech we created, the more work shifted from the man of the house to the lady of the house and standards were raised Three hundred years ago, full-time wives did about 60 hours/week of housework. Today, with all our modern appliances, they still do about 60 hours/week of housework. In most…

This all seems very reasonable but none of this is seems to be what is argued here. This person hates islands and maybe a TV show featuring one because something about the idea of "being performative". It's just a bunch of trite crap.

I think they dislike this specific island used on the show because it no longer makes any sense. In the same way families would sit around the dinner table they now sit around this gargantuan kitchen island. It's the worst of both worlds: the dining room is now taking up all the space in the kitchen and this person needs to run around this ridiculous island when they cook.

An argument can be made that some kitchen islands are useful. It would be a struggle to make that argument for this particular kitchen island.

It's only touched on in the article but I find the idea that some people have _two_ kitchens, a smaller and private one in which they cook and then _another entire kitchen_ that is larger and only for show to be much more upsetting than this crazy big kitchen island.

Re: The big little lie of the TV kitchen island

#60

Post by ljf »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #41
anon4242 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you have some solid data to support that statement? I unfortunately only have anecdotal evidence that 60h is not implausible. Me and my wife have two kids and share most of the household work, it's not an even split (she does more). I would say that on average we both work from the time we get back home from work until the kids sleep, ~4hrs later. In addition to that, one of us probably spends some 30 mins ea…

Are we counting all time spent with children as a chore? Don't get me wrong, I'm a father of two. Like you, our work is not split evenly, though I like to think I take on a higher share than most similarly situated men. There are times when my time with my sons can be trying, and I can get behind counting some fraction of that time as work. On the other hand, just today my son and I spent three hours going to and fro…

And I also had a 3 hour meeting today with co-workers that I enjoy working with, solving a problem we all care about. That was work.

I'll be commuting home for an hour. That is work.

Tonight I'll be putting the kids to bed, then tidying up the kitchen. That is also work.

I think it is fair to say, that as an adult with kids, much of your time that you aren't doing something just for you, will to a degree be work. And that is OK. As long as you and your partner are happy with the split you have, then that is OK too.

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