Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#31

Post by jotm » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

cygned wrote: post #25

jotm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? Is there a problem with having a company with only one employee and one client?

Yes, if you have an incorporation (UG/GmbH/...) where you are the only managing partner (Ein-Personen-GmbH) and you only have one client, you’re handled as if you were a freelancer with only one client. It was an easy way to circumvent several obligations until they “closed” that “loophole”.

Come to think of it, there was a proposed change to taxation in the UK for these cases. Not sure what happened to it, it was not in effect this year.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#32

Post by k__ » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #30

Scheinselbständigkeit also takes into account other properties than "only one customer". There are plenty of freelancers working only for Daimler, Bosch, etc. Can you decline projects? Do you control your work times/place. Do you have to handle on your own authority etc.

Btw. I work remote for 4 years now and since last year for US companies.

I just solved that problem with multiple customers, so I don't really have your problem, sorry.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#33

Post by helge5 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

leethargo wrote: post #28

I'm in a similar situation (German citizen living in Germany, working as a freelancer for a company in Asia). As far as I can tell from some research, the only "risk" is that I might have to do some back-payments into the Rentenversicherung. But if I were to be employed regularly to a company (in the EU?) the same would apply. In either case, I have to pay for the health insurance, so there's no real "avoiding the co…

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side.

Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insurance companies). That is why the process mentioned above is important. If you register self-employed but later they declare you as dependently-employed, gov social security has to be paid! Something you should avoid upfront, can be super expensive. So => "Statusfeststellungsverfahren"!

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#34

Post by k__ » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #21

762236 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you have a single client, the government may claim that you are trying to avoid tax and other obligations --- that you have a fake company.

Wouldn't you actually be paying more taxes as a one person company? Why does it matter if the company has only one client and one employee if everything is paid properly?

It's about the public tax fund.

You have to pay into it of you're employed and make below ~4800€ (before taxes) a month.

It's rather much % of your income, so you can save rather much by not paying it.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#35

Post by Ded7xSEoPKYNsDd » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

My understanding is that in your 2nd scenario (contractor), the tax/social security authorities might at some point decide that this is Scheinselbständigkeit, and therefore it's actually been scenario 1 all along. What I'm unclear about is whether they'll try to collect from the worker in DE or the company in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#36

Post by zeug » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

You should give the Rentenkasse an call. They are happy to tell you, if this would be Scheinselbständigkeit.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#37

Post by zeug » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

zeug wrote: post #36

You should give the Rentenkasse an call. They are happy to tell you, if this would be Scheinselbständigkeit.

They will also give the reason why/why not on paper. So you should be Fine.

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#38

Post by Tempest1981 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

frfl wrote: post #24

Aardwolf wrote: post #18

Off topic, but why are Ask HN posts displayed in gray like a negatively voted comment? This entry has 35 positive points currently so shouldn't be made so low contrast...

It's to de-emphasize post bodies. It's like that for all post bodies on HN. I believe the rationale was to focus on the title/link and any comments.

For me, the title is also gray:

"Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?"

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#39

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

> since I dont have a degree in CS, I can't be selbständig in that field

Wtf? Is there a rationale for this rule or is it just German's super weird "degrees are everything" culture turned to law?

(I'm Dutch, were basically Germans who talk funny, but I'm very happy we don't have rules like these)

Re: Ask HN: Germans, how to work legally remote?

#40

Post by johannes1234321 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

helge5 wrote: post #26

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #7

I did this for a few years. Here are your options: Employment by the US company: They're allowed to employ you and have you "stationed" in Germany. You pay no US tax, and DE tax on 100% of this income. For Sozialversicherung, Rentenversicherung etc it's just as if you were selbständig. Since you're allowed to give up all sorts of rights in DE conteact Law, the US based contract is probably fine. Contractor for the US…

Just a small clarification: You are still "selbständig" (self-employed) if you do a "Gewerbe". The thing you don't get easily is a so called "Freiberuf", particularly if you don't have an engineering degree (though I managed to get it). Tax wise it is actually almost easier to do non-EU business than doing business in Europe, because there are no VAT issues involved (and there are no tariffs on those things). You jus…

The difference between "Gewerbe" and "Freiberufler" ist quite grey. I'm the software field I have often seen the distinction between creating software on your own (creative/artistic work - freier Beruf) vs. implementing other's requirements (production - Gewerbe) but in each case it depends on the tax officer looking at the files.