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Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

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Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#41

Developers hate them because coding tests have devolved into multi-hour, unpaid assignments from which no feedback is given. It's especially bad if they are unwilling (as some seem to be) to have a short phone conversation prior to the coding test to tell you about the project.

> It's especially bad if they are unwilling (as some seem to be) to have a short phone conversation prior to the coding test to tell you about the project. I'm sympathetic. But the last time I put out a job ad I got over 100 applications for a single opening. How should companies try to narrow that to a manageable number? Just look at the CV and throw it out based on that? What do you look for on the CV that cuts out…

Yes, that's the exact reason you got those CVs in the first place. To assess their suitability. To require every applicant to waste their time to do some test to save you reading them is phenomenally lazy. Do that after you've done an initial pass over the CVs, and had a conversation with them.

Your job opening should have had some sort of "job specification" with "essential" and "desirable" criteria. Take a quick pass over all the CVs. If they don't meet all essential criteria, then put them in a reject pile. For the remaining CVs, order them by how many of the desirable criteria they meet, then take a cut of the top n to contact. If you don't have the time to do this, then HR should. This won't take long; it's a quick yes/no. You look at the remaining CVs in detail after that initial pass and take into account their education, experience etc.

Any candidate worth their salt will already have tailored their CV for the job specification to make sure that the essential and desirable criteria are clearly shown on the CV to make your job easier. If it's not clear, then reject it. You'll have that number down to a shortlist of 5 in 60 minutes.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#42
Something that bothers me: Most of these tests are looking for the same things, so why do I have to take the test for each company I apply for? It strikes me that this is a similar problem to getting into university and for that there are standardized tests.

Why can't we introduce a standardized coding skills exam where everyone is given the same problems and the same amount of time to solve them? The whole industry can collaborate and learn from each other to make a single test that gives the best hiring signal.

I'm under no illusion that such a thing would be trivial to do but it seems feasible. You get rid of the resume check, replace the recruiter call with a first-stage multiple choice exam that gates the rest of the process and replace the coding interview with a long-form exam with open questions. The long-form exams can be graded by the engineers that would otherwise be doing interviews but distributed amongst all the companies involved.

Once you've got all the technical stuff out of the way, you can do a single onsite interview for culture fit.

Seems like this is a win for everyone. Candidates can do the coding portion once instead of say 5 times, those 5 companies only have to evaluate a fifth of the candidates' exams (since the grading is shared amongst them) and you no longer have the problem of each candidate getting a completely different process to every other candidate.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#43
post #42

Something that bothers me: Most of these tests are looking for the same things, so why do I have to take the test for each company I apply for? It strikes me that this is a similar problem to getting into university and for that there are standardized tests. Why can't we introduce a standardized coding skills exam where everyone is given the same problems and the same amount of time to solve them? The whole industry…

There is a YC company that is trying to do this:

https://triplebyte.com/

Search for stories about it on HN to see how it's going.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#44
post #15

Developers hate them because coding tests have devolved into multi-hour, unpaid assignments from which no feedback is given. It's especially bad if they are unwilling (as some seem to be) to have a short phone conversation prior to the coding test to tell you about the project.

I don't know about the US but here in the UK paying someone for a coding test is actually not as simple as it sounds. If you employ someone, even just for a half day test, you have to do a "Right to work" assessment ( https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work ) which can take up a lot of time. It's a pain in the *&^%. At my company we give candidates something to cover any expenses they've had to pay to at…

You know what else takes a lot of time and it’s a pain?

Doing the dumb tests and assignments.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#45
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coding test without a chat first is super annoying and something I flat out refuse. If you can't be bothered to invest 30 minutes, don't expect me to put in n hours.

Amazon runs codility tests prior to a phone chat.

I guess I’ll never work at Amazon...

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#46
post #31
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just pay them a flat-rate expense reimbursement. Tadaa, problem fixed! I hate companies cowaring behind rigid interpretations of rules to get out of paying people.

But there is tax limit on flat reimbursements that is considerably lower than the actual cost in almost all cases (think €20 for a night in a hotel). Following your advice is actually a criminal offence (tax evasion).

Law is fungible.

Wealth funges it.

Seems the problem is one of will.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#47
post #23

This article focuses too much on the developer role in the coding skills challenge, portraying the companies as bystanders waiting for a result. Usually the problem comes with the evaluation. If you're asking a senior to bring a different way of thinking, but you ask your team of mid to senior dev, who never worked anywhere else for the matter, to evaluate, you're gonna most often get an evaluation based on their cur…

I'm not sure that generalises. I'm in the mid-senior range and the most interesting interviews I've done were those where I learned about something new. Even if people came up with ideas I didn't agree with, they got bonus points for justifying them or considering the pros/cons. And I know I'm not the only person that appreciated it.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#48
post #29
post #11

I like coding tests. They give me an opportunity to differentiate myself.

And some "musicians" love to play scales, and can play them really well.

There are tests (silly logic puzzles or rehashing cs) and tests (actually useful practice evaluation). Let's assume the positive side of this idea.

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#49
In my opinion, simple answer why developers hate codking skills tests is: they have a huge opportunity cost ([1], see also [2] and [3] for a more humorous explanation) for the person to be tested. Or, put in more simple words: in the time that a coding skill test takes, you could earn money.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opportunity_cost&...

[2] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-12-29

[3] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-04-20

Re: Why Developers Hate Coding Skills Tests and What Hiring Managers Can Do

#50
post #40

I am happy for people who has energy, free time, and will to prove their abilities. I don't have the will, or energy for that. I have been working in the area like for the approx. last 2 decades. If anyone wants to validate if I can really code, can put 1 hour of their time and go over my github/gitlab profiles instead of asking 1 hour of my free time to redo what I was doing professionally. This will be counted agai…

I have over 100,000 LoC in the public domain, in over 30 repos (the ones I'm highlighting). I have architected, deployed and shepherded large-scale hybrid systems that are currently in use daily by thousands of people around the world.

I have a decade of checkins and mineable Git data.

I have solved every single problem that I've ever encountered; whether technical or human (I was a manager for a long time).

I have convinced skeptical, conservative, empirical Japanese managers to fund and support development strategies, based mostly on their confidence in me, and my Integrity.

I have hundreds of pages of articles I've written in Medium and my own (multiple) sites.

I have multiple sites that I have designed, and hundreds of pages of instruction, along with entire courses and presentations.

I can trot out a long line of personal and professional references that include CEOs, VPs, lawyers, doctors, consultants, politicians and other engineers, all of whom will sing my praises to the stars -on the record.

A big reason for that, is the reason I'm not extremely well-known (outside of a certain narrow demographic). I have done most of my engineering over the last decade in Service and open-source projects that aren't about making money; but helping others.

However, when I say this, the answer I get is "IF what you say is true..."

Why the hell would anyone make a claim like that without backup? That's crazy.

OF COURSE I can back it up. My SO Story is a mile long, with links to everything.

Damn straight, there's folks better than me at pretty much any branch of what I do, but I know few that can offer the depth of knowledge across the spectrum, like I can.

AND I CAN PROVE IT.

But you'll make your decision based on a half-hour, fifty-line binary tree test that a college student would ace better than me.

I want to see lawyers do legal briefs as part of their interview. I want to see doctors do "trial surgeries." I want to see HR managers do "how would you handle this?" tests as the ONLY variable in their hiring process, while having their portfolios ignored.

After a few months of this crap, I just gave up, and started my own gig. It's working well, but slowly.

I would have been fine, taking a low salary, if the work interested me. My retirement's set. I have a couple of companies that I can use to keep my toys going.

But good luck with the "Draw Spunky" matchbook tests. I'm sure that you'll get top-shelf talent, that way.

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