Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#181

Post by ellius » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 10:57 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #115

The hardest part of working with really smart people is that they can rationalize pretty much anything. Worse still, if they have been on the project for years and you’re the new guy, you’re working from a deficit of knowledge and they’ve had plenty of time to cook up a “coherent but wrong” model of the universe. The only thing that saves a group like that is humility. Trying to see the system through the eyes of the…

You probably know this, but a lot of studies back you up. Being smarter doesn't necessarily make you more likely to be right, but it makes you a hell of a lot better at rationalizing your position and persuading others. Also, that comment about the "old guy with an inferiority complex who sneaks one really profound comment in every meeting" really hit home. We have that guy on my team too. You have to wonder what's going on when those guys are sitting in the corner and us blustery people are doing all of the talking.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#182

Post by ajross » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #139

taftster wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but chopping off the bottom 5% typically makes room for more hiring; these emptied jobs are likely to be filled with less-than-stellar candidates. It take the new hires a few years before they too are dropped down into that lower 5% rank. Stack ranking ensures that you have churn in your workforce, and not in a good way. You wonder why workers in the tech industry move around so much? Look at stack ran…

That’s by design. Keeps the workforce young and insurance cheap.

Less cynically, it also increases the odds of finding good employees. A "bottom 5%" worker is statistically less likely to suddenly rise to the top of the pack than a new hire is to produce at that level initially. And, more cynically, that remains true even if there's significant measurement error in identifying that 5%.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#183

Post by mlinsey » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

Sorry you had to go through such obviously bad management. Just to give some context about how these guidelines are supposed to work at Google: being managed out for staying at Meets Expectations is something that's supposed to be only applicable to entry-level roles. (when I was there, this applied to the new grad T3 rank, as well as T4, I think this may have changed since I left to be just T3).

But at an entry-level rank, it is possible to get good ratings and even get promoted if your product hasn't shipped to customers yet (and I would do this with my directs routinely), as long as you are delivering milestones. Part of the definition of T3 is that you cannot yet independently work on a project, ie you need help from senior devs to get things done, and IMO if you stay at this level for more than 1.5 years (3 reviews), and there are no other extenuating circumstances, it's appropriate to consider if the company is a fit.

At more senior levels, you have to show business/customer impact to get promoted, but there is also no notion of being managed out for meeting expectations.

Of course, these guidelines aren't always implemented or communicated equally across the company, to say nothing of other companies that copy only parts of the process.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#184

Post by wolco » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

Mangalor wrote: post #179

steelframe wrote: post #21

Speaking as someone who has been at Google for about 10 years, I would caution against trying to paint "developers at Google" using broad strokes. Google is a multifaceted megacorporation housing a plethora software project categories. Through the years I've been deeply involved in a wide spectrum of them, ranging from "disconnect for 6 solid months and deliver a leapfrog for the masses" to "form an umbilical cord wi…

> "disconnect for 6 solid months and deliver a leapfrog for the masses" What a luxury that must've been...

No it was g+

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#185

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

theworld572 wrote: post #48

Tharkun wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My biggest criticism of Agile and Scrum is that it assumes that you can just plan out how a feature will work by sitting in a meeting and talking about it. No, it doesn't. It wants the team to discuss features to help find preventable issues up front and to make it as clear as possible. The unknown unknowns remain unknown, which is why an estimate is an estimate, and a sprint is a best-effort attempt at getting a t…

Whats the point of SCRUM then? If all it does is to tell you "do what makes sense" why do we even need it? Thats a rhetorical question, I already know the answer is that we need it in order to keep SCRUM consultants, certifications, training etc. a profitable business. Whether or not you think SCRUM is good or bad, you can't argue that a sizeable (if not the majority) amount of companies are "not doing it right" and…

In the traditional waterfall model, you don't do what makes sense. The Plan has been set, and you have to find a way to do even the parts that don't make sense, because it will be a huge disaster if The Plan isn't complete.

Sometimes it's even the right development model! If you're building the control system for a new power plant, you'd better follow the agreed-on spec even if you realize it's not the best way to do things.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#186

Post by utopian3 » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #184

Mangalor wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "disconnect for 6 solid months and deliver a leapfrog for the masses" What a luxury that must've been...

No it was g+

Or one of the twelve messaging apps that got ignored by the masses because no one longer trusts their products

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#187

Post by bamboozled » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #70

bamboozled wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly what I see happen too, "Agile" is used an excuse to introduce some type of bureaucratic process to fix what is actually pathological cultural / leadership issues.

s/fix/try and fail to fix.

Yup, thanks for that, this is what I meant.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#188

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Aug 03, 2019, 11:55 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #166

Spooky23 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s by design. Keeps the workforce young and insurance cheap.

Why would companies prefer cheap insurance over productivity? If they want to pay less, they can just pay less. People would rather get paid less than get fired.

Big companies are driven by the mean and dollars. The short term numbers work out, and long term productivity issues are addressed by acquisition.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#189

Post by rs23296008n1 » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:08 AM UTC

js2 wrote: post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

That termination threat is to me a signal that the company hates me and the business relationship is unrecoverable. I'd be polishing my CV and would be gone within a month of finding a better opportunity. Likely with a raise while I was at it.

Toxic environments like that are not worth working in. All sorts of other "interesting" corporate cultural aspects are usually also present. Their ethics are compromised so fraud and other criminal activity etc is probably going on as well. Even if not, the company is badly run and long term will fail in various ways for foolish reasons.

Re: Why do developers at Google consider Agile development to be nonsense? (2016)

#190

Post by keanzu » Sun, Aug 04, 2019, 12:13 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #68

js2 wrote: post #29

> This type of innovation takes significant up-front design time, and working on components over longer than one week iterations. Because the projects have such simple external interfaces, and so much internal complexity, much of the work is not even visible to “customers”, so there is no way to write customer visible stories about it. This type of software takes 8–20 months to deliver the first working version to th…

> From being warned I'd be terminated to a promotion in less than six months, with no change in my work, but simply it becoming visible. Whee big company fun. They probably deduced from this that their warning system worked as expected.

Regression to the mean tells you that if you reward success and yell at under performers the successful people will get worse and the under performers will get better. Lesson learned: All yelling, all the time.