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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#431
post #426
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I even said, right at the very beginning of my comment, that you’re right about many of your observations. My word choice may have been poor in some places, but overall I defend the content. You’re (self-admittedly) missing some of the life and business experience that comes with being an older programmer, and then expressing skepticism about direct advice communic…

Well, what you wrote was : > It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. I looked at the top rated comment for the other times this exact same article was posted on hacker news. For none of those, the top rated comment "is a skeptical response...from a junior developer". Actually, it's more often ( https://news.ycombinator.co…

Well, sure: you disagree, and you’re seeking out arguments that confirm your existing beliefs.

In any case, I’ve said what I have to say on the subject. I can’t make you listen to my direct experience, but I’m not going to spend time arguing with you about it.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#432
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiters and interviewers focus too much on "technology of the day" that will always change and be out of date, and not enough on foundational knowledge that is always transferable to new tech. So if you don't have they right modern tech stack on your resume then you have no chance of getting hired even if you are perfectly capable of doing the work. This is where "resume driven development" comes from. Smart and r…

That is not specific to big companies vs small companies, which is what I was asking about upthread.

If you're saying that it doesn't matter if you're at a small or large company using an internal company specific tech stack, then I agree. Both will leave you as unhireable even if your actual development skills can transfer just fine.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#433
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you're working but where I work, being a developer is awesome. Fresh, healthy, high quality, free food catered for 3 meals a day? Check. Best healthcare possible provided at no cost? Check. Stocked kitchen with all kinds of snacks, high end coffee, kombucha etc with ability to make requests? Check. Freedom to come in when I want and leave when I want? Check. Work remotely when I want? Check. Any eq…

What you say is that for you all those benefits outweigh the actual fact of sitting in front of computer all day. It's hard to give them all up, that's true.

When I was younger with no profession I tried painting houses and waiting tables. Now *those^ are hard. Programming is paradise compared. Fun, challenging and comfortable.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#434

Ok I'll bite. I had the realization yesterday that I peaked at 25 (I'm 42). I got my computer engineering degree in 1999 and used to do things like really complicated integrations in calculus, and solve weird 3D intersection formulas for different variables to do change of coordinates on various surfaces for rasterizing before wolframalpha.com was a thing. I look at my invention lists from 20 years ago and they were…

Your comment resonated with me quite a bit, in fact enough to persuade me to finally create an account here (longtime lurker). I'm an older developer as well and have had many similar thoughts to yours lately.

> But now, I can barely install a new software stack without this primal sense of exhaustion. I can't explain it, but it feels like everything is just.. wrong somehow. Or a little off. Like maybe the profit motive and disruption became the primary motivators instead of progress and scientific discovery.

I have felt this way recently too. I have thought that in my case perhaps it's burnout, but I think I could put it even more accurately as a sense of futility. Learning another framework that largely solves the same problems, but with a new author or a new company backing it. I think some (many, most?) of these new frameworks arise because thoughtful engineers want to dig into a problem (and learn by doing), and the really good ones come up with these useful frameworks/languages. And maybe that is the best way to really learn something. I'm sure many folks posting here could easily, like you mention, write their own language (or lisp interpreter!), or web framework etc. In fact, I guess I don't even necessarily see it as a bad thing - I'd just rather be driving my choice of technology and I feel the futility when something is /oversold/ to me and I'm /forced/ to learn it or be considered a dinosaur. Maybe exhaustion is an even better word than futility, exhaustion at doing the same thing over and over again (maybe even new framework or not).

For me though, I have felt this sense of exhaustion/futility more profoundly since I've gotten into Lisp. I think it really is a different, and a fundamentally better approach to language design. It's interested me in the history of computer science, and I've been reading a lot of foundational papers in the field. I'm honestly pretty disappointed my undergrad school's CS curriculum didn't give any of this stuff more than a cursory look in any of the classes I took. It's made it that much harder though for me to get into the framework of the day -- it's almost ruined regular development for me :-). Thought exercise: look at how the "walrus" operator in python has caused such strong reactions out of so many people -- it's just a simple macro in a lisp, developers could write a macro that accomplishes this functionality in a few lines of code and use it without forcing any consumer of their code to even update their language runtime! Now while the technical solution here is so obvious and perfect, maybe the strong reactions people have would be the same -- whether or not one /should/ write such a macro etc :-).

> And unfortunately, that nebulous ball of cruft is where the money is in software development. I've spent the last 20 years knee deep in code so ugly (from assembly code up through SQL) that I feel like a plumber who sees code as.. sewage. There is just so much code, filling every crack where declarative and data-driven solutions would accomplish the exact same thing but with no side effects.

Yes -- I've had the same experience. I think this is mainly for me though a dissatisfaction of writing or being a part of so many similar apps (but yet writing them all like the first time, in different ways). I'd rather I think in the long run have written them in one language (Lisp, but I'd even take just sticking with C over the long run) -- and be able to build on my past work. Then at least if another app was truly like something I'd done in the past I could just instantly complete it, or better yet, spend my time /just/ learning the real domain of the problem, rather than wasting time with the shiny technical wrapping paper around it.

> If I'm depressed then it's environmental, and I feel stuck with it because I can't change the world. But that's why I learned to code in the first place 30 years ago. So now what? I guess I'm just curious if any older devs here have reached similar conclusions. And like, were you able to rise above it? Were you lucky enough to start 5 years earlier than me and capitalize on the booms to the point where you're independently wealthy now? Or is that a widespread fallacy, that "if I was just a little older" maybe I could have ridden a bubble? Or do you fantasize about being 20 years younger, starting in the world today where you have access to all the secrets of entrepreneurship online and still have a beginner's optimism?

I'm not independently wealthy, as you have a few years on me, I missed all the bubbles too. I do live minimally in the hope of getting out as early as possible though, or putting myself in a place where I could maybe contemplate a career change. What depresses me more though is this: I'm pretty sure I could continue on this treadmill pretty easily if I believed more in where the industry was going. I've recently read "The Age of Surveillance Capitalism" and am fully in agreement with the author's views on the large tech companies. In fact, I've declined working for one of the big tech companies for these reasons already. I fantasize about getting out of tech, or if I do stay in tech maybe of starting a non-profit similar to the FSF or EFF (and figuring how to sustain my family while doing so). That or get into tech related to medicine. I've always wanted to teach, but I fully believe if I ever were to teach CS (and I absolutely /love/ it and got an advanced degree in the hopes of eventually teaching), I would have to believe in the types of jobs out there, and I don't want to quit industry to teach, I want to /retire/ happily from industry and teach (believing in where industry is going). I also don't want to teach people who will have no job prospects but those that continue to further the age of surveillance capitalism. Though, I don't blame people who do. In my younger years I never cared about a "why", but was always just hyper-actively interested in whatever the technical problem was.

I don't long for being 20 years younger and getting in to tech today, I long for the age when Microsoft was the big bad tech company. At least then they weren't spying on everyone, and Linux/open source was a bright spot, and we controlled our own hardware. If anything, I wish my prime had been when comp.lang.lisp was in its prime. Mostly though, I fantasize about working with deep thinkers to solve problems actually worth solving.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#435
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon has demonstrated its ability to show a profit. Uber and Lyft have not.

If the acronym is only about profit then it is both misused and excludes other obvious companies like Microsoft.

How does it exclude Microsoft, who reported $8.4 billion net income for Q2 2019?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#436
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to angel.co there are 88 startups in London alone using Java. Whenever I attend London's Silicon Milk Roundabout bi-annual jobs fair the dominant languages are Python and Java. Java's status in the top 3 programming languages worldwide cannot be explained away by its dominant position in legacy enterprise software. What about Android, for example?

I personally have done a startup in Java in 2004, and have written Java code for money as recently as last year. So I feel comfortable saying Java is generally a bad idea for startups. Java was the core language for Android because it started in the early 2000s, when Java was the new hotness. But it is no longer the primary Android language; that's now officially Kotlin, because the majority of developers had already…

I'm not disputing whether Java is a good choice for anything, just refuting your assertion that Java is the new COBOL and is mainly used in legacy enterprise software. Jobs stats on Indeed.com (corporate) and Angel.co (startups) show that's clearly not the case.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#437
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally have done a startup in Java in 2004, and have written Java code for money as recently as last year. So I feel comfortable saying Java is generally a bad idea for startups. Java was the core language for Android because it started in the early 2000s, when Java was the new hotness. But it is no longer the primary Android language; that's now officially Kotlin, because the majority of developers had already…

I'm not disputing whether Java is a good choice for anything, just refuting your assertion that Java is the new COBOL and is mainly used in legacy enterprise software. Jobs stats on Indeed.com (corporate) and Angel.co (startups) show that's clearly not the case.

Java is the new COBOL in that it dominates in enterprise contexts because a) it's seen as a safe choice and b) they already have a lot of Java. Yes, there are plenty of jobs in it. There were plenty of jobs in COBOL too for decades.

If you have stats that suggest it's a popular language for startups relative to other languages, I look forward to seeing them. But my experience is otherwise, and it has pretty clearly been on the decline for years. You seem eager to ignore the fact that it's now a second-class language on Android, but Google Trends shows the same decline more generally: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%...

You can contrast that with, say, Node: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2009-01-01%202...

Or React, both of which show the classic increasing interest curve of the new hotness: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2009-01-01%202...

Or you could compare it with Ruby on Rails, which is farther along in the cycle. Formerly super exciting, it's now seeing declining interest as well: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%...

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#438
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ is a skill that is in demand in the US as well, and age doesn't matter a bit, especially as many of the younger crowd can't or won't learn it.

> as many of the younger crowd can't or won't learn it. Or don't need to learn it. Web dev jobs are more plentiful than C++ jobs and need different skills.

Maybe.

Writing good software is a skill that isn't particularly language dependent. Most web devs don't.

A true polyglot is always going to be more valuable than someone who can only write websites.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#439
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yes. But as the article said, there is a diminishing amount of value after every year of true experience after a number of years. I would say around 10. I definitely don’t believe in the “10x Engineer” (individual contributor) - yes they do exist but are so rare they aren’t worth talking about. I do believe in being a force multiplier as a team lead/mentor.

Just one note about 10x, because I often see people ho don't believe it have the definition wrong. 10x programmers are not ten times better than the average programmer, they are ten times better than the worse programmers. This is based on an actual study and, by the metrics the study chose, this disparity does exist. Of course, measuring programming performance is notoriously intractable.
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