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Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

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Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#291

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

I'm going to argue in good faith to try and derail this hate train. First, I'm a physician and I consider myself about a borderline expert in medical billing/insurance.

Let's disrupt some stuff here:

First, it is EXTREMELY rare for a physician to be paid a million dollars. You can easily look at most state's open records (California, Texas, Florida) and search the online databases and see that it's usually only several in an entire state and these are people of extreme qualification or unique talent. The Dean of a large/famous medical school (a CEO essentially), a very famous chair of a department (they helped invent some special technology or are well-known leaders in their field), or are simply prestigious to the institution because of notoriety (imagine an Atul Gawande or an Oliver Sacks).

Second, the costs of healthcare have been sliced and diced by countless experts and the numbers tell a different story than your theory--most analyses place physician payments at 10-20% of the total cost of healthcare depending on who is doing the study.

Third, there's no way you received ONE bill that wasn't itemized. Typically you receive two bills--one for the 'facility' and one for the 'professional.' It's usually obvious which is which because an ER might charge $1000 or more for that quick visit, while the physician probably would've charged in the $100-200 range. When you hear about those scary $50,000 bills for a night in the hospital and a $30 box of tissues... that's the hospital bill. It's extremely high because of many complicated reasons... most of which have to do with the fact that it NEEDS to be that high or insurance companies won't pay the negotiated rate of about 40% or less of that--it's an arms race that needs to stop.

I'll give you that there are complicated price gouging issues that come up on the physician side (out-of-network billing, surprise bills, etc) that may be unethical and some states are dealing with this... but it's usually a tenth or less of the total of what is coming from the facility in the same scenario.

So anyway, you could literally pay doctors nothing and you would save maybe 10-20% on all those bills. Does that sound like a viable setup?

You can Google some articles and read studies, but I'll save you the time and give you something to think about that should convince you that the physicians can't possibly be the primary problem:

Many (most?) physicians are now wage earners. They increasingly own less and less of the infrastructure (capital) of healthcare and are less independent than ever (consolidated, hospital owned groups, VC and publicly owned groups like Envision and MEDNAX).

In this kind of capitalist setting, where would your profits go? To your doctor workforce? No! It goes into C-level administration, shareholders/investors AND reinvestment/M&A.

Hospitals and Insurance companies, Drug companies, Device companies.... these are the real power players and their influence in seen all the time as they negotiate sweetheart deals (Medicare Part D for example), continue to consolidate ownership, and literally price gouge from consumers (EpiPen, insulin, etc, where a cheap drug is inflated in price for no reason).

I'm truly sorry for the state of the system in the US, but the fix has to come from Congress. If tomorrow every doctor was perfectly ethicall and paid 50% of what they earn today, all that savings would just end up as dividends for the capital owners and NOT as lower hospital bills.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#292
post #219
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gets me at the end of the day is that almost the entire institution that makes programming "valuable" is wholly fictitious and socially constructed. Without institutional international copyright and IP protection the vast majority of software produced would not generate nearly as much revenue per developer hour as it does today. The entire industry is basically an accident caused by greedy corporations extending…

If everyone could copy your IP which is essentially free to do these days with computers, how would anyone make money creating IP which is the main driver of GDP growth? Would you prefer to live in a stagnating economy while every other countries citizens gets richer than you everyday?

IP creators could still make money from the first sale, or in a pay-what-you-want scheme.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#293
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see a lot of people trying to justify medical salaries due to the cost of education and malpractice insurance, but an integrated program could work around that. We should treat it like the infantry. If you want to drive a tank and blow up people, you don't apply to a college and get a Doctorate in Blowing People Up. You don't buy insurance to cover if you blow up the wrong people. You join the army. I'd like to se…

Would that end up also being single payer?

If you wanted to do it cost effectively, yes.

I have experience of single player (UK) and private insurance based but properly managed by the government (NL) and can tell you that single player is much cheaper to run. When I moved to NL about 15 years ago the UK was spending the same per capita on the NHS as The Netherlands spent from the central government to cover the shortfall to the insurers.

In 2019 there isn't as much difference: a significant amount of providers in the UK have been privatised which increased costs whilst at the same time the NHS budgets have been systemically strangled in real terms - something like annual 2% budget increases against annual 15% cost increases thanks to demographics and lifestyle choices.

So in short: single payer is great but the second the Republicans (or whatever the "don't tax the rich" party is at the time) get to touch it they'll ruin it.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. Alone, a fever under 104°F that isn't for an extended duration isn't something you should take an otherwise healthy four-year-old to the ER for. If you go to an ER for a non-emergency, you are definitely going to overpay for what you get, by an even wider margin than you usually overpay because of the need for those customers that pay to subsidize the costs…

Your answer is insane and shocking.

I’m not a doctor, so the usual disclaimers, but with three kids this has generally been our experience — young ones get some ridiculously high fevers by adult standards and generally, if they clearly have a virus, it’s not something too freak out about.

The big exceptions are if they’re really young — like still babies — or if they’re not themselves: can’t stand up, overly weak, not eating or drinking.

My main point of contention is around using the internet as a diagnostic tool — much better to call an advice nurse if you have access to one.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#295

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

[deleted]

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#296

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

Does the "ER" refer to what is called "A&E" in the UK, which has a triage system before you get into any "Room".

This would ensure that you (a) wait at least 10 hours to be seen for this and (b) don't interrupt life saving surgery for it. If this is the case you should be charged less, but if you get an actual emergency doctor looking at it then maybe $756 is justified †, as they are a limit resource and there is a high cost of running an ER I would imagine.

† To the extent that non-free emergency healthcare is justifiable.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings about this. As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities? Same goes with football/basketball/etc.. players whose sole purpose in li…

> As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities? FAANG companies make from 500k to over 1 million dollars in revenue per employee. Paying someone 1/10th t…

How about paying fair taxes? Why we as society tolerate all these offshore tax avoidencies?

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how the process works for an ER. A doc in a box urgent care would essentially do that. An ER handles everything from bee stings to shootings or strokes. They’re optimized to deal with those emergencies, not optimize cost for minor dings, especially when most of the minor issues are uninsured people who won’t pay anyway. Emergency medicine is not a profit center, and is often mandated to exist. You’re payin…

>A doc in a box urgent care would essentially do that. Yeah, and urgent care facilities usually have working hours like 8AM-8PM. Because, you know, those are the only hours people every get minor sicknesses.

If it's a minor sickness it can usually wait 12 hours?

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#299
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the cost of training. In the US there's implicit expectation that becoming a doctor is a way to become wealthy, similar in earning potential to becoming a lawyer. There's no such expectation in most other countries which are often used in arguments for how socialized medicine "costs less". Their doctors make a fraction of what US doctors do, so of course it "costs less". Right now in the US you'd be "so…

There better be a $300k+ payday at the end of a doctor’s training, otherwise I don’t see how the gauntlet they get put through is worth sacrificing their best years (20s and early 30s).

If you are trying to make free market arguments for doctors salaries come on. The doctors guild restricts supply through the state. No free market here.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#300
I’ve been purchasing drugs entirely by cash, optimizing markets as best I can, for about 7 years now. I began when I discovered my employer’s drug plan, Optum, was charging me significantly higher prices than the the spot prices on the open market.
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