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Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

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171–180 of 345 posts

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#171
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it depends on the efficacy of the cheaper procedure. It's rare for the cheaper procedure to be as accurate as the more expensive one. If you knew the tuning fork was 80% accurate and an x-ray 100% accurate, would you still take it? I'd personally pay extra to make sure I was diagnosed correctly.

From the initial story the tuning fork would be followed up by an x-ray on a positive result; so you don't really care about overall accuracy but false negative rate (since a higher false positive rate than x-ray is immaterial, since the follow-up x-ray constraints the false positive rate.) While the exact test done may not be common, its very common for any of a variety of broadly similar (in that they work by induc…

Indeed you have it right. In fact the PA did go through a whole set of range of motion and "does it hurt" tests which all indicated no fracture. The tuning fork was just a last check to verify that, and of course I had the option to go get an X-ray if I wanted it regardless.

I just didn't see any need at that point, since the treatment would just end up being "take it easy on your hand and don't engage in any sports for a while."

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#172

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

We took our daughter to a children's hospital (CHOC, a pretty famous one), went through triage, and got put into a room. A nurse came in, asked questions, said the child needs to pee in a cup, and left. Two hours later, still nobody had checked on us, and no doctor. I had asked more than once for an update during this time to no avail. Also, we never even got the pee cup.

So we left. They billed us (something around $600?), we sent a letter explaining they didn't do anything, but they still demanded money. We never paid and it eventually went to collections. We explained what happened to collections, and surprisingly they went away.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#173
It's important to remember that an insurance company has very little to zero incentive to lower costs. The only incentive an insurer has is to ensure costs are predictable. It doesn't matter if costs go up 20% next year as long as they know costs will not go up 25%. The extra cost gets shunted into the premium.

There is no party in the current healthcare system whose incentive is to lower prices. Medicare/Medicaid can achieve low costs by fiat, but it's broadly accepted that the whole system as structured today couldn't operate on those prices [1]. This means private insurance picks up the delta.

Doctors, Hospitals, Pharmacies, Drug companies, Medical device companies all have zero incentive to lower prices. You might think technology that makes doctors visits (to pick one example) would just win out in the marketplace, but there's a flawed assumption there. Most people are insured, so most people are paying the insured cost. For something like a doctor's visit, you pay your copay (say, $25) and the insurer pays the rest (lets say up to $70). Assume you could get an app or a technology that gets that price down to $35. This would be a huge achievement and you'd go out of business because it's more expensive than what the consumer sees.

Ah yes, but maybe you can pitch to insurers, surely they would love a lower cost! Probably not. You're small so you can't reduce their costs across the board. Even if you succeed, they have caps on how many profits they can take (usually something like 15-20%) so if you drop their costs, that might actually force them to refund customers. Good, but not the primary driver for profitability.

Let's even grant that the above isn't true. You're still a small player, you basically need to fit inside their (extremely cumbersome) protocols to be able to bill them. Now you have to do all sorts of billing and management, maybe you need to hire extra staff to run billing. That $35 now financially doesn't make sense, maybe it's now $55. Still cheaper but now you're in the system and don't have much of a competitive advantage that's visible to the consumer. Now you differentiate by offering better services, maybe a good online portal, that costs more engineers, and now we're back up to $70. Insurer doesn't care much, you're just another provider, they'll pay, you'll make money, and we're back to square one.

We're not even considering the, "Is the cancer doc that costs 25% less the same value as the other guy?" problem, which is damn hard on its own.

Healthcare is really hard, and the incentives across the board are perverse. I'm increasingly skeptical a solution that doesn't dramatically reshape the market is likely to make a difference.

[1] https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/mgma-majority-pra...

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#174
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently took my GF to the ER because she had been stung by a bee and was worried she was allergic. She was feeling dizzy but once we were in the ER she started feeling better. They basically took her vitals, waited 30 minutes or so, gave her a steroid, and then sent us home. They told us it probably wouldn't be very expensive as she was uninsured. Later the bills arrived: $1300 from the ER ($1900 minus a $600 unin…

Generally speaking, that’s an example of a fundamentally wasteful ER visit, and why the lack of universal coverage is so dumb. That’s why ERs cost a fortune. If you’re not bleeding, have a broken limb or other trauma or an expectation of being admitted, you don’t belong in the ER. Take a benadryl.

So why doesn't the triage nurse hand out the Benadryl, tell the patient to wait in the lobby for an hour, and see if that resolves it? They could charge $75 for the single pill, and still avoid using a bed or the services of additional staff.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#175

Beyond opaque and variable pricing for the same service, there is also the question of whether something simpler would do the trick. Some years ago, I thought I might have broken my finger. I went to the doctor and it was actually the physician's assistant who saw me. I'd explained at the front desk that I had a high-deductible policy and I would be paying in full for the visit. The PA said "Usually we would send som…

In my experience, X-rays at urgent care centers are only ~$100. Hospitals are much more expensive and variable, though.

That is true, I recall they mentioned $150 but we are in the same ballpark.

It wasn't the cost that steered me away from the X-ray, I just didn't want to take the time to wait in line after I felt sure that it was just a sprain and all I needed to do was take it easy on my hand. (I updated my original comment to note some of these details.)

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#176
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. For the market to work, substitute goods would need to have transparent pricing so the customer can choose with price in mind. Most ultrasounds — indeed, most entire hospitals — are pretty close to identical goods. Everyone will die without food, but supermarkets don't take advantage of that fact to mark up food by 500%.

It's easy to evaluate the quality of an apple and there are dozens of substitute goods (other fruit). It's not easy to evaluate the quality of an ultrasound machine, the staff required to operate it, and their interpretation of the results. Depending on the medical issue, there may not be a substitute good (procedure). Medicine does not work with market principles.

I disagree, I would think that imaging centers produce comparable results. On the medical side, the substitute good isn't a different procedure, it's the same procedure done by a different provider.

Most people do not currently make any of those evaluations anyway, so as far as the consumer is concerned, they are de facto substitute goods since they have no rationale for making a choice.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#177

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

I have mixed feelings about this. As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities? Same goes with football/basketball/etc.. players whose sole purpose in li…

> As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities?

Programmers only make that because the services they build are extremely scalable, profitable, and wanted by many driving up demand for programmers. Eventually, supply should drive down wages which is fair. I also don't mind doctors making good money but they should not be able to artificially constrain supply just so they can jack up their prices.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#178

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

It depends. Are you paying for the visit or per hour / per treatment? Paying by visit aligns the doctor to perform the minimum required treatment instead of something expensive “just in case”.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I get a lot of flak from, well, pretty much everyone for pointing out that your neighborhood doctor is likely a scam artist. Clearly I’m generalizing but just suggesting it may be the case is usually met with undue skepticism. Not to mention, having an inside look at med school gives you a different perspective on the motivations of most rising doctors. It’s rarely about anything but lifestyle and money. I…

> your neighborhood doctor is likely a scam artist. I don't blame a Dr for trying to charge 7x the actual value of their time if 6/7 people don't pay them at all (the case in ERs). They're employing the same practice as insurance companies. But when a Dr does it he's a scam artist?

Yes. If the price was 1/7th, people would pay. $70 for ibuprofen is still a huge ripoff, but they would pay it. No one will pay $700.

Re: Insured price $2,758, cash price $521

#180

I took my 4 year old to the ER because he had a 103 fever. The doctor put an ear thermometer to him and told me to give him some childrens ibuprofen. The visit lasted all of 5 minutes. The cost: $756.00. I refused to pay it. It was the first time I did not pay a debt and the first time I was sent to collections. I refused based on principle, and not because I couldn’t afford it. Collections called me for about 3 mont…

I have mixed feelings about this. As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities? Same goes with football/basketball/etc.. players whose sole purpose in li…

> As society, we seem to be ok with millennials fresh out of college making hundreds of thousands of $$$ a year for a bunch Javascript that allows people to share pictures of their butt with their friends BUT we are not ok with doctors who literally - save lives - getting paid according to their responsibilities?

FAANG companies make from 500k to over 1 million dollars in revenue per employee.

Paying someone 1/10th to 1/4rd of what they bring in is hardly outrageous.

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