Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'll learn to farm and support myself that way. With the climate apocalypse, that's becoming less and less likely.
Actually if everything folds in completely the way the alarmists are telling us it will, being able to grow your own food will be the only thing that will save you.
Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
71–80 of 446 posts
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#72Mid-40's here. I'm in management but considering getting back into development/architecture. I've kept up with my skills in Java and DevOps and Kubernetes so I have a breadth of knowledge and skills that I know people are looking for. Management was my plan B and honestly I hate it.
A couple of years ago, the company I worked for abruptly went out of business (like, I came into work on Monday and they said, “we’re closed effectively immediately, go home, we’ll e-mail you severance details”). I sent out about a dozen resumes, got two interviews, flunked the first and got an offer at the second - the whole process took about two weeks and I was no longer unemployed. I was on good terms with one of…
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#73What are some common Plan Bs?
Farming ;) Joke aside, I don't know how much of this problem is more related to older devs insisting to have the same dev employment they always had than acutally being old. Go into management. Become self-employed. Start your own shop, service or product based. Teach younger people what you know for money. There are many jobs besides just being a "senior developer". I've also seen many non-tech occupations becoming…
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#74While I’ve no doubt that age discrimination does exist, when you see people who are former programmers at 40 (or 30 for that matter) it’s often just that they started out in programming but got bored of it and moved on to other careers. Or gradually became managers rather than programmers. Statistics may certainly show that programmers skew young, but its not always due to being forced out, or denied opportunities, b…
For a lot of people who experience discrimination, it's not one big blow-up that forces them out. It's the steady drip-drip-drip of being treated poorly, denied opportunities, etc. Eventually they just get worn down.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#75This is generally true. It's a combination of many things, from brain "degradation", ageism, simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ), other more important interests like having a real life and when you really mute all the marketing BS, your delusions and wishful thinking, the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life for the maj…
> the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life The thing is, it doesn't have to be and, until relatively recently, honestly wasn't. It's a shitty job and a sad life because we have open offices, ticket-tracking systems and daily standups. There was a time when programming was exciting and rewarding.
Where I'm at, the floor is divided in such a way that teams sitting together can sometimes have their own little "bull pen" area that's a little bit separated from other teams (if only by a whiteboard wall). This helps, and I like working in an area with just my team, but I would prefer real walls.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#76I don't know. I feel like there's a pretty clear power law governing the skill-ceiling below which additional experience adds actual value to dev work. ~80% of programming labor (testing, basic REST services, static web content, managing a small-to-medium-size SQL database, etc.) has a very low skill-ceiling. I've been in the industry for 7 years, I now run my own show doing all of these things. It's just simple grun…
> grinding away at a FANG I've started to propose we s/FANG/Big N/g "FANG" leaves off other obvious big companies, e.g. Uber, and it wouldn't scale to keep trying to add them to the acronym. Here N is used like when one talks about a list "N items long"
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Save and invest 40% of your income. After 15 to 20 years you should be able to declare financial independence, if you want to...
That only works if you start at 25 when you graduate. Not a viable plan for someone approaching 40 who wants to make sure they can continue to support themselves into their 60's and beyond.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#78Mid-40's here. I'm in management but considering getting back into development/architecture. I've kept up with my skills in Java and DevOps and Kubernetes so I have a breadth of knowledge and skills that I know people are looking for. Management was my plan B and honestly I hate it.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#79This is generally true. It's a combination of many things, from brain "degradation", ageism, simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ), other more important interests like having a real life and when you really mute all the marketing BS, your delusions and wishful thinking, the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life for the maj…
> the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life The thing is, it doesn't have to be and, until relatively recently, honestly wasn't. It's a shitty job and a sad life because we have open offices, ticket-tracking systems and daily standups. There was a time when programming was exciting and rewarding.
Indeed. It's almost as if it's a bad idea to take people working in a field where creativity and careful thought are fundamental and a wide variety of experience with different but related ideas is often helpful and then try to turn them into interchangeable commodities with the whole process dumbed down to the level of the least competent developer or manager in the team.
For my own career, escaping that sort of foolishness was the single biggest benefit when I made the jump to freelance work and even more so when I first became a founder. As soon as you go independent, you're no longer dealing with a subordinate employer-employee relationship, where everything you do is subject to the whimsy and caprice of whoever pays your salary. Instead, you're dealing with a business to business client-service relationship, where your objective is to provide the service the client needs. How you choose to solve whatever problem they have in terms of technology or process is much more down to your own professional judgement. If you do follow entrepreneurial route, you become effectively both client and service provider in that sense, and it's what you learn from your market research and customer relations that guides your direction in often even more general terms.
There was a time when programming was exciting and rewarding.
IMHO, it still is, as long as you find an environment where using fun things to get useful results is the emphasis. Mind-numbing corporate box-ticking is soul-destroying in any field.
We're privileged to work in a field where all we really need to do useful work is often a laptop, an Internet connection, and a willingness to use our brains, and where that work can still be valuable enough to others to make a very nice living off it, and where there is no shortage of potential customers.
Now, there's nothing wrong with being a competent professional who turns up and writes software during office hours and then goes home to enjoy life with their family/friends/hobbies like anyone else, and maybe for those people the structured corporate environment is helpful. And of course going independent has other challenges that aren't just about technical skills, and those are not for everyone. But for anyone who wants more than an office job and doesn't mind taking on a broader skill set to operate independently, I don't understand why they would continue to work in the kind of toxic employment environment we are discussing today. I suspect that in many cases it is simply ignorance (meant literally, not derogatively) of the possible alternatives and the paths to transition to them.
Incidentally, as a convenient side effect of working as an independent professional or through your own hopefully more enlightened business, the sort of ageist nonsense that motivated today's discussion also largely disappears. For a lot of clients outside the tech bubble, a 25-year-old in trendy clothes spouting the latest buzzwords is much less impressive than a 45-year-old who immediately gives off a competent, professional vibe. And if you're the 45-year-old who did keep up with developments and has had an extra 20 years of honing their skills, your rates can reflect your greater capability and productivity, which is much harder to achieve if you're still someone's employee at that point.
Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)
#80I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…
OA> Herein is the source of the problem. The more irrelevant experience a candidate has, the more lopsided the utility/value equation becomes…
No, the source of the problem is the idea that 10 years of “C++ experience” is “irrelevant” to a project using Rails, as if development experience is somehow locked to the language you happened to do the development in.
Being a valuable senior developer is about 10% what technology you know and about 90% how good you are at working in a team to solve a business problem with a machine, and those fundamental skills haven’t changed much since 1960.
As you point out, the more experience you have, the more you realize that all these “different” technologies are mostly the same wine in different bottles. Or, as I like to say, “it’s all just software”.