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Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#121

Post by arrrg »

AstralStorm wrote: post #63
arrrg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers have a lot of power (because they do the actual work and have all the power over how something is actually implemented in the end) and share a lot of responsibility. Additionally they are often the only ones who can be aware of certain ethical issues and concerns. If they don’t bring it up others might not be able to even perceive the ethical issue because it comes down to implementation details. I would a…

Developers have no power other than quit, which is not always financially possible. And as we are well paid, there are enough replacements. But not necessarily always good job offers. (And word gets out. You can get informally blacklisted.) The only other option, still risking the job, is whistleblowing. That potentially also breaks NDA and employment contracts. We have no power over deadlines (cutting privacy featur…

You immediately assume evil intent and a complete unwillingness to cooperate. And, yes, in this capitalist hellscape of ours that’s a very real possibility.

But don’t just assume that bringing up ethical issues others might not even be aware of isn’t a fruitful endeavor at all. You sketched out the extreme case, not every case.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#122

Post by icebraining »

joshuamorton wrote: post #49
calcifer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have really bad intuitions around privacy. > Having worked at companies that collected that data [...] No, you just have a different personal definition of privacy. The fact that you think your use of my data is innocuous doesn't mean you are not violating my privacy. If your use was really, trully unobjectionable you'd be fine with getting clear and explicit consent. Somehow, I don't think an honest consent…

> If your use was really, trully unobjectionable you'd be fine with getting clear and explicit consent. This ignores human nature: requiring people to make a decision, any decision, is a friction point that will lose users. Something like "we'd like to increment a counter when our app crashes, we won't log anything else than that single bit". So first of all, you'll have people who will claim that you could be lying,…

It should be noted that the GDPR doesn't apply to truly anonymous data, like your hypothetical counter. The reason you get those consent dialogs is because those trackers are doing a whole lot more than incrementing counters.

In fact, is anyone incrementing counters nowadays? At all? Every solution I see involves pushing a whole crash report filled with a bunch of device info (including IDs, IP, etc) and then aggregating that into numbers. Talking about incrementing counters seems like misdirection when discussing the current state of privacy.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#123

Post by csmattryder »

antihero wrote: post #95
probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

> We really need mandatory ethics courses in CS. We had this module at uni, nobody turned up because it was boring. https://www.reading.ac.uk/modules/document.aspx?modP=CS3SL16...

We had that at my uni as well, a mandatory module in the second year. From what I remember of it, the end-of-module test at the end was a quiz that you could "common-sense" your way through.

While humans need to pay for shelter and food, ethics will always take a back seat. I've got no qualms with CSR being a legal procedure, but then it's the ironic problem of defining "ethical behaviour" without impeding civil liberties.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#124

Post by tjoff »

RL_Quine wrote: post #116
matsemann wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one thing I like with GDPR. It has to be informed consent for a lot of cases. Can't hide it and say you agreed to whatever in a hidden EULA.

The cookie warnings mostly end up being meaningless “WE NEED COOKIES TO WORK CLICK OK” on every website.

The cookie warnings are not about GDPR.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#125

Post by tjoff »

netsharc wrote: post #119
RL_Quine wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cookie warnings mostly end up being meaningless “WE NEED COOKIES TO WORK CLICK OK” on every website.

In my experience it's become that or "Open these sections and select 'No' on every item, meaning it'll be 20 more clicks before you can see the content of this page"

That is not compliant with GDPR anyway.

Appreciate that you now know they absolutely despise their users and take action by never using that site again.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#126

Post by melling »

probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

I thought the response was that you’re already carrying a microphone with you everywhere.

Most people are using Siri in their smartphone.

Explaining why I have Alexa in my home should be less of an ordeal now.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#127

Post by codetrotter »

tedeh wrote: post #103
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a prototype for Echelon IV. My instructions are to amuse visitors with information about themselves I don't see anything amusing about spying on people. Human beings feel pleasure when they are watched. I have recorded their smiles as I tell them who they are Some people just don't understand the dangers of indiscriminate surveillance. The need to be observed and understood was once satisfied by God. Now we can…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b-bijO3uEw

Thanks, the formatting that parent commenter used was confusing, I thought they were simultaneously quoting from somewhere and adding their own commentary.

Would be much more clear if instead parent commenter did as the subtitles do in the video you linked, and like they do in movie scripts, and also in other texts where a dialogue between two or more parties is presented.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#128

Post by chongli »

abhisuri97 wrote: post #21
probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

Minor point: While I do agree that ethics course should be a part of CS curricula, wouldn’t managers be the ones who likely pushed for the pattern you’re remarking upon? (Ie ethics classes would be more useful for them?)

wouldn’t managers be the ones who likely pushed for the pattern you’re remarking upon?

A friend of mine is currently studying to be a civil engineer. As part of his program, he's required to take multiple courses in engineering ethics and business ethics, as well as economics and law.

He's relayed to me numerous anecdotes from lectures all about engineers who caved to pressure from non-engineer business and political stakeholders. When the bridge collapsed or the building fell over, it was the engineers who were to blame. Again and again it was drilled into the class that you, as an engineer, are the last word when it comes to defending sound engineering principles.

They went on to learn about how this is the basis for the structure of engineering firms and that it's not allowed for civil engineers to work in a subordinate role at a company run by non-engineers, in order to prevent a non-engineer from ordering an employee to affix their seal to a building plan.

Perhaps we need something similar for software developers (seems a little absurd to call them engineers in light of the above, doesn't it?) I don't see how we'd enforce it though, since any kid can take a laptop into their bedroom and write a program with potentially millions of users.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#129

Post by Quanttek »

RL_Quine wrote: post #116
matsemann wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one thing I like with GDPR. It has to be informed consent for a lot of cases. Can't hide it and say you agreed to whatever in a hidden EULA.

The cookie warnings mostly end up being meaningless “WE NEED COOKIES TO WORK CLICK OK” on every website.

The cookie warnings are not a consequence of the GDPR (remember they've been there before) and also only need to be done when you have non-essential cookies on your site (i.e. tracking, ads)

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#130

Post by pdkl95 »

iClaudiusX wrote: post #85
probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

Fully informed consent should be a bare minimum for this kind of work. Tech should take a cue from the biomedical research community and adopt an institutional review board that can independently assess the ethical and privacy implications of the data they're collecting. Apple could be a leader here and drag the rest of the industry forward.

> take a cue from the biomedical research community and adopt an institutional review board

Some sort of "tech IRB" is absolutely needed. Unfortunately, when this idea was brought up after Facebook's infamous "emotional contagion" experiment - that any kind of human experimentation needs some kind of ethical oversight - the common response was "everybody does A/B testing".

A more practical idea is liability. Let the insurance companies handle the problem with a UL-like certification process that enforces bare minimum standards for data privacy.

> he data they're collecting

[slightly off topic] re: the industry's insatiable thirst for More Data... Negativland recently[1] return to us in our hour of need!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTWD0j4tec4

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