High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism • Hacker News Board

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#171

Post by xkcd-sucks » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 1:59 AM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #5

Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds any water that might be an interesting investigation.

ASD diagnosis of a reasonably functional person is basically whether they're weird or not. For example, I picked one up almost by accident when I nit-picked a psychologist's choice of wording and then explained my reasoning when questioned about it.

If someone publicly asserts they're trapped in the body of the wrong sex, and does not back down when challenged, might this be sufficiently weird to be ASD by definition? Especially given the awkwardness of violating gender norms.

A comparison between ASD diagnosis rates in places where trans identity is culturally normalized might shed some light on it, but as ASD diagnosis is also pretty cultural it might be tricky.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#172

Post by lonelappde » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 2:25 AM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #13

Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring. However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earli…

Autism in males is supposed correlated to high testosterone and long ring fingers, opposite of this article.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn509-pointer-for-autis...

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#173

Post by lazyasciiart » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #86

mrlala wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s just semantics No it's not... I was responding to someone who said there is no "normal". Yeah, there is. Most people behave in a way you would expect. Most people exhibit motor controls the way you would expect. A minority of people, and specifically people with autism, really do think in a "different" way and exhibit strange motor functions at times that most people do not. I don't think we have to dance aroun…

> Most people behave in a way you would expect. This is absurd. How do you have any idea what "you would expect"? > I'm using normal in the statistical sense. Statistically, most people are very neurologically similar and then some people are (relatively) wildly different. First, define "very neurologically similar". Second, "most people are similar" in a normal distribution because that's the way the distribution is…

Even without being able to consciously explain their expectations, humans are often consciously aware when their expectations have been violated. Experimentally, there are lots of responses that can be tracked. Unexpected stimuli causes slower reactions, longer focus times, and stronger memories. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/tops.12292

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#174

Post by lazyasciiart » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #119

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical practitioners aren't on a platonic quest for truth when they make diagnoses. They're generally trying to separate out those who would benefit from treatment. Physical tests aren't often that useful for mental conditions, so official diagnostic criteria often has a section about how the observed traits and behaviors cause problems for the patient at home, in school, or at work. Furthermore, people simply don't…

Thank you for that clarification, that is my rough understanding of mental health having been sent to a whole mess of shrinks. I guess what my ultimate misunderstanding is: > One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism How is that a complicating factor in discovering causes themselves? If someone has the Foo and Bar factors that cause autism, but has otherwise…

In the case of something like autism, the presentation of symptoms is massively complicated by the amount of support and therapy/'training' a person has had. In a population where everyone had equal levels of Foo and Bar, but a widely varying level of therapy, they would show widely varying levels of 'autism' in their diagnosis - and this would complicate any attempt to study the relationship of Foo+Barautism.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#175

Post by lazyasciiart » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 2:59 AM UTC

dooglius wrote: post #160

Latty wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scientific method is not generally served well by people seeking to find a particular answer, as opposed to the truth. Not saying that is the case here, but I agree with the parent-it inspires some scepticism from me.

You gererate a hypothesis and then experimentally test that hypothesis, I don't see anything wrong there. How else would you evaluate new theories that go against convention? Maybe you are suggesting that he fudged the data or otherwise manipulated the experiment to get a desired result?

One way that you can get bad results is to start with too broad a hypothesis, like 'autism is related to maleness', conduct your experiment and then engage in p-hacking, or analysing all the relationships in the data that would support your hypothesis until you find one that looks significant. [https://bitesizebio.com/31497/guilty-p-hacking/]

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#176

Post by mgamache » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 3:04 AM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #104

I have hemophilia, a genetically inherited X-chromosome linked disorder, inherited from the mother. Due to the fact males have an XY chromosome and mothers have two X’s, with one of the X’s containing the faulty gene, it’s possible for a mother to have children with and without the disease. In fact, there is a 50% chance each of her males will have the disorder. Why am I telling you this? Because there is a test that…

Let's get some things straight.. Did they use CVS to get the DNA sample? CVS has birth defect risks. This is not playing God, this is taking a calculated risk because you know of a 50% chance of a birth defect. It is horrible that your brother suffered unnecessarily. I am pretty sure that they can sample the mother's blood to get the DNA needed in 2019 (so no risk of birth defects).

[https://www.webmd.com/baby/chorionic-villus-sampling]

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#177

Post by lazyasciiart » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 4:17 AM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #174

mieseratte wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for that clarification, that is my rough understanding of mental health having been sent to a whole mess of shrinks. I guess what my ultimate misunderstanding is: > One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism How is that a complicating factor in discovering causes themselves? If someone has the Foo and Bar factors that cause autism, but has otherwise…

In the case of something like autism, the presentation of symptoms is massively complicated by the amount of support and therapy/'training' a person has had. In a population where everyone had equal levels of Foo and Bar, but a widely varying level of therapy, they would show widely varying levels of 'autism' in their diagnosis - and this would complicate any attempt to study the relationship of Foo+Bar autism.

Should have said: that is in an imaginary scenario where foo+bar really does cause autism

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#178

Post by username90 » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 5:07 AM UTC

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #171

danharaj wrote: post #5

Something like 1 in 4 transgender women are also autistic. If this study holds any water that might be an interesting investigation.

ASD diagnosis of a reasonably functional person is basically whether they're weird or not. For example, I picked one up almost by accident when I nit-picked a psychologist's choice of wording and then explained my reasoning when questioned about it. If someone publicly asserts they're trapped in the body of the wrong sex, and does not back down when challenged, might this be sufficiently weird to be ASD by definition…

A psychologist tried to put an Autism diagnosis on me as well, yet I am extremely good at reading people. So I believe that Autism as diagnosed is not just a spectrum, but a normal distribution where both tail ends are bad. A person who can't read others feelings will obviously not be good at dealing with others. However a person who has too much empathy won't be able to properly cope with the pain from social situations and will therefore spend most of their energy trying to keep the empathy in check. This results in similar problems and even "Meltdowns" when they fail to cope.

Both sides get the same autism diagnosis since both of them are better at dealing with things than people, but they are completely different. For me I felt the diagnosis would hurt more than help since it didn't properly describe me, so I asked for a proper test and alternatives. I got ADD and social phobia, there were no signs of proper autism but I could have gotten a diagnosis from the original psychologists hunch.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#179

Post by tarsinge » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 7:13 AM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #13

Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring. However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earli…

Maybe I’m misreading but the article says the opposite that it’s a short ratio (short index) that is associated with asperger and autistic traits.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#180

Post by blaser-waffle » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #157

PeterisP wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily, for example, the very thing in the article title - high levels of oestrogens in the womb - is about hormone levels not caused by expression of your genes but influenced by outside environment.

An outside environment which shares ~50% of your genes, though.

Nothing genetic about lead in the air or in paint, or hormones in your beef. Nothing genetic about alcohol or cigarette exposure in the womb. Or random thugs terrifying your parents, putting your pregnant mom through waves of fight-or-flight hormone spikes.