Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

thebroadcastbridge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 156 posts

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#141

Post by extrapickles »

Balgair wrote: post #128
extrapickles wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICU is not trivial as everything is done quickly. At first thought, overhead cable gantries would be the best as you could quickly toss the cable/tube into it, but then the area around the patent would have tubes getting in the way, so some thought would have to be put into how the cables come out of the gantries. Other techniques such as pre-laid cable guards could work (a smaller version of the things cables go thr…

Thanks for the input! Yeah, overhead cables aren't the best, as a lot of the time, the length of the tubes and cables aren't long enought to do that. Also, yes, you'll end up with a 'beaded curtain' of tubes and stuff going into the patient. The idea of having everything routed under and then up to the bedside is not bad, though cable length is still an issue. It is a hard problem for sure.

In an ideal world, the sizes of medical equipment be standardized, and have bays in the bed that they plug into, with the bed providing power. This would keep the tube and cable lengths short, and you could have a guard around the bed to keep people from accidentally leaning on the tubes or pulling them out. The control consoles would have to be external to the module though, as you don't want visiting kids (or knees) pushing shinny buttons under grandmas bed. Having the control panels be remote would help reduce the number of people needed to be next to the person, giving the people who are directly operating on the patient more room. This would also make patent transport easier, as you would no longer need a army of people to help move all the equipment keeping the patient alive or the possible errors that can be introduced by disconnecting and reconnecting the equipment.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#142

Post by amelius »

nimbius wrote: post #64

Speaking as an automotive engine mechanic, sometimes we use lacing in long-haul tractor trailers. Wiring for sensor modules along the air-slide fifth wheel, near the attic, or especially around the air brake dryer are always laced. The reason for this is zip ties will quickly fail after freeze-thaw cycles. professional drivers in wisconsin or Minnesota cannot get stuck due to an electrical failure on the side of a re…

But why worry about the tie material when the electrical wire itself is insulated using plastic?

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#144

Post by state_less »

Balgair wrote: post #130
peterwwillis wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of sounds like they need a raised floor. Cabling bundles can be fed into ports in the floor tiles and run the length of rooms without being exposed in a way that people would trip on them.

Thanks for the input! That's a pretty good idea! The main issue is that you don't have the time to pull up the flooring and then run the lines. You get the machines into the room and then into the patient ASAP, as they tend to be some of the only things keeping them alive. Think a machine that replaces heart-beat function and that you will have a hard time disconnecting.

Maybe a foam pool noodle split longitudinal. You can feed in tubes/cables in the split after being hooked up, when you have time. Should protect the tubes/cables and be light weight and cheap. Cut to desired length. Put some Velcro straps at the ends of noodle to secure them in a position along the tubes.

This is what I put around the lines of my sailboat.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#145

Post by plttn »

Balgair wrote: post #130
peterwwillis wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of sounds like they need a raised floor. Cabling bundles can be fed into ports in the floor tiles and run the length of rooms without being exposed in a way that people would trip on them.

Thanks for the input! That's a pretty good idea! The main issue is that you don't have the time to pull up the flooring and then run the lines. You get the machines into the room and then into the patient ASAP, as they tend to be some of the only things keeping them alive. Think a machine that replaces heart-beat function and that you will have a hard time disconnecting.

Bad idea in search of good idea, start with power, some sort of bumper car style power distribution system. You could do something similar to the newer floor pick up system, where the ceiling has a fine grid of + and - terminal rails, and the carts have hookups designed to always be touching at least 1 of each polarity, and then normalize the power.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#147

Post by killjoywashere »

Balgair wrote: post #129
throwaway542134 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually seems like a really interesting problem to me. I don't think there's one pretty solution here. You'd have to break it down a bit. - Do the patients go to the machine, or machine to the patient? Wireless makes sense for the latter, not the former. - What's the failure mode? An alarm/alert to the nurse station, or death? Wireless makes sense for the former, I think. - Are there any machines at every bedsi…

Thanks a ton for the questions and the thoughts! It is a terribly hard problem to solve, hence the plea to others on HN. > - Do the patients go to the machine, or machine to the patient? In an ICU, where these problems are most acute, the machines come to the patient. You can fill a good sized room with these machines if the patient is in an especially dire state. Like, maybe 30 carts if it is really bad. > What's th…

This might be a "problem where every instance is bespoke". Another would be nuclear a weapon detonation or a major hurricane. You can plan for it and run simulations all you want, but your resource constraints aren't known until after the event.

ICU rooms contain patients teetering at the edge of death, who might take months to heal or die. They might be "almost out" and suddenly crash into a totally different crisis than the one they were wired up for an hour ago (cardiac patient has a stroke, stroke patient has an MI, bariatric surgery patient throws a pulmonary embolus, etc). Ventilation, gastric tube, rectal tube, urinary catheter, 10 central venous drips, an arterial line, and a 5-lead EKG and pulse ox, all on in a patient who's on a pneumatic mattress that is constantly rocking the patient to prevent bedsores, is not uncommon.

And there are three vendors attached to every device. For example, Masimo has the pulse ox device, but the leads are from Cardinal Health under license (no doubt produced under subcontract in China, with soy-based insulation) and the sensor sticker is held on with a second layer of generic silk tape because that's what the nurse had at the time.

If you really wanted to do this, you'd have to have the entire suite designed by a single engineering firm with an obsessive focus on supply chain management. You'd need the Boeing or Airbus of ICUs. But doctors are generally convinced they don't need engineers, so good luck with that.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#148

Post by Aloha »

amelius wrote: post #143
_Microft wrote: post #11

Here's cable lacing visible on a Mars rover: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/MER-2_On...

Can't most of these wires be replaced by WiFi?

No, even if lacing was only used for network, wireless will likely never replace some sort of wired technology.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#149

Post by nine_k »

amelius wrote: post #143
_Microft wrote: post #11

Here's cable lacing visible on a Mars rover: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/MER-2_On...

Can't most of these wires be replaced by WiFi?

No; a lot of wires carry the actual power to the effector (e.g. a lam, or a motor, or a relay). WiFi, on top of being vastly more complex, has issues with electromagnetic noise, wave propagation problems, and thus delivery delays. And it needs a processor powerful enough to run all the logic with encryption on top, because you don't want strangers to talk to your devices.

A length of copper is so much more reliable.

Re: The Lost Art of Lacing Cable (2018)

#150

Post by m463 »

nimbius wrote: post #64

Speaking as an automotive engine mechanic, sometimes we use lacing in long-haul tractor trailers. Wiring for sensor modules along the air-slide fifth wheel, near the attic, or especially around the air brake dryer are always laced. The reason for this is zip ties will quickly fail after freeze-thaw cycles. professional drivers in wisconsin or Minnesota cannot get stuck due to an electrical failure on the side of a re…

In racing (and aviation) there's a whole art to safety wiring. Is that ever used anywhere anymore?
Post reply on HN