High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism • Hacker News Board

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#131

Post by Latty » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #92

I've had a sneaking feeling that a lot of the phyto-estrogen compounds out their were eventually going to be linked to autism. Expect to see a massive consumer wave against anything containing these compounds: fragrances and any items that contain fragrance, dyes, receipt paper, soy, both BPA and BPS in soft plastics, etc.

Is there any reason to believe that phytoestrogens would act in a similar way to estrogen, to a significant level, in humans? People throw around this concern a lot, but I have never seen evidence of that.

Edit: Elsewhere in this comment thread, the argument appears to be that the opposite may in fact be true: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20588240

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#132

Post by jazoom » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #88

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #14

One complicating factor that I put into every thread about random things being associated with autism: the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. It measures things like frequency of meltdowns, ability to handle their everyday life without assistance, ability to "mask" by doing things like holding eye contact or memor…

> the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition. Am I missing something?

I'm a medical practitioner and that sounds a little silly to me too. I don't diagnose autism, though. I leave that to the paediatricians. The main reason that diagnosis is a big deal here is it's related to funding packages. I suspect that's also why ability comes into it.

The other thing is that autism is somewhat nebulous and it's in part a condition of not being able to cope socially in this world. So because of this, it makes sense what GP was saying.

I'm glad I don't need to diagnose autism. Severe is easy to see from 100m away. Borderline would be a coin toss.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#133

Post by Latty » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

dooglius wrote: post #122

Itaxpica wrote: post #100

I'd take this with... not quite a grain of salt, but maybe a small dose of healthy skepticism. Simon Baron-Cohen is a legitimate and respected researcher, but he's well known in autism research circles as pushing very hard a theory that autism is a manifestation of an "extreme male brain", which is a theory that almost every other significant researcher in the field disagrees with. I'd suggest taking a critical view…

It sounds like this is evidence for that view then. Why is the researcher's theory relevant to results that support that theory?

The scientific method is not generally served well by people seeking to find a particular answer, as opposed to the truth.

Not saying that is the case here, but I agree with the parent-it inspires some scepticism from me.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#134

Post by w3mmpp » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

theonlyklas wrote: post #97

taqcp wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autism is a disorder and at some levels it renders the ailed person simply useless.

As mean as this sounds to read, it's the truth. I personally know families who had an autistic child, did their best to accommodate and integrate them, but the child grew up to be nonverbal, destructive, etc. Of course it's not always true. The poster is right that autism isn't inherently bad, just different.

Ask them if they judge their kid is "useless".

And since when do we judge human beings on their usefulness? Should we kill every non productive beings with that reasoning since they're not "useful"?

And nobody downvote you 2 is a shame.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#135

Post by lonelappde » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

bogwog wrote: post #40

Zenst wrote: post #13

Maybe so, though equally could just be a small part in a larger puzzle or even a red herring. However, as somebody who is on the autistic spectrum, I have noted that my index and "ring finger"[edit thanks to comment] are of equal lengths, a trait more common in females than males who tend to have one longer - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio Another aspect/theory from personal experience is that my earli…

That digit ratio stuff has always weirded me out. There are even some studies that show certain ratios correspond with homosexuality. That wikipedia page even has a huge table with a list of stuff like having a high digit ratio corresponds to reduced financial trading ability, and a low digit ratio corresponds to a longer penis. That shit is weird.

It's essentially a list of stereotypically male/female traits that correlate with testosterone/estrogen.

And of course not a p-value or effect size is sight.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#136

Post by taqcp » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

w3mmpp wrote: post #134

theonlyklas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mean as this sounds to read, it's the truth. I personally know families who had an autistic child, did their best to accommodate and integrate them, but the child grew up to be nonverbal, destructive, etc. Of course it's not always true. The poster is right that autism isn't inherently bad, just different.

Ask them if they judge their kid is "useless". And since when do we judge human beings on their usefulness? Should we kill every non productive beings with that reasoning since they're not "useful"? And nobody downvote you 2 is a shame.

>Ask them if they judge their kid is "useless".

They'll probably say no, but their kid is useless socially, economically, etc. Can't have a job, can't help others, can't have friends, can't have a normal life, hell can't even have a life.

>And since when do we judge human beings on their usefulness?

Since always? That's all we do. And this is not a case of someone who's in a wheelchair or deaf, this is someone who can't do anything other than yell and throw things. That's my experience with an autistic person at the "high end" of the spectrum.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#137

Post by lonelappde » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

jazoom wrote: post #132

mieseratte wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition. Am I missing something?

I'm a medical practitioner and that sounds a little silly to me too. I don't diagnose autism, though. I leave that to the paediatricians. The main reason that diagnosis is a big deal here is it's related to funding packages. I suspect that's also why ability comes into it. The other thing is that autism is somewhat nebulous and it's in part a condition of not being able to cope socially in this world. So because of t…

Adults can be autistic and can have great quality of life improvements from diagnosis and treatment.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#138

Post by lonelappde » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

dooglius wrote: post #101

mieseratte wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the diagnostic criteria for autism doesn't just measure how autistic someone is, but also how well they've learned to cope with being autistic. I'm not medically qualified at all, but that sounds a bit like saying Typhoid Mary didn't have typhoid because she was asymptomatic. That someone is able to effectively cope with a condition doesn't mean they don't have the condition. Am I missing something?

We don't know what autism really is, beyond it's symptomatic effects and correlations like that of TFA. It's not clear that there is a meaningful notion of being autistic but asymptomatic. Typhoid, on the other hand, is a bacteria that exists independent of its symptoms.

"Asymptomatic" just means poor or absent testing, not an inherent property. Better diagnostic tests can detect low visibility symptoms.

It's like saying that someone with nearsightedness is asymptomatic and therefore not nearsighted because someone is good at squinting. There are still symptoms if you know what to check for.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#139

Post by jazoom » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #137

jazoom wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a medical practitioner and that sounds a little silly to me too. I don't diagnose autism, though. I leave that to the paediatricians. The main reason that diagnosis is a big deal here is it's related to funding packages. I suspect that's also why ability comes into it. The other thing is that autism is somewhat nebulous and it's in part a condition of not being able to cope socially in this world. So because of t…

Adults can be autistic and can have great quality of life improvements from diagnosis and treatment.

In that case I leave it to the psychiatrists. In practice, very few adults are diagnosed with autism where I'm from.

Re: High levels of oestrogens in the womb linked to autism

#140

Post by lonelappde » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #28

mffnbs wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that difficult to believe. Estrogen isn't known to cause large behavioral changes like you've described. The changes in hormones can result in some emotional changes, but I cannot see how they would reduce symptoms of autism.

Symptoms of being a high-functioning autistic—as perceived by others—include an inability to empathize with peers or with hypotheticals of “natural” human responses. But one obvious confounder for this symptom is that you’re comparing with the wrong peers. Being a woman but not liking the things women like or having the same emotional responses that women tend to have (because, instead, you like the things men like a…

1-2% of males are autistic. A female with stereotypically male traits isn't autistic on that basis.