Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17 • Hacker News Board

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#21

Post by dTal » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 6:48 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #19

jascii wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying And no, he didn't flee to china, he transited through Hong Kong, which seems to be a sound tactical choice considering Hong Kongs unique position in international politics.

> There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United State…

He was in Hawaii, and not in possession of a teleport. Which country with functioning human rights strong enough to resist American extradition pressure do you suggest he have taken a plane to?

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#22

Post by mindslight » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 6:51 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #16

mindslight wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple answer is that you have been consuming too much mass media, and have succumbed to its insidious bias. This "weaponization" of the Internet narrative is based around casting vulnerabilities as if they're "nobody's fault", rather than mundane gross negligence. The digital realm inherently favors defenders - if there is no logic error, packets just bounce off. And this applies even in the less-certain psychol…

>Everybody involved in tech should have already known Yeah, I knew back in 2008 or so, well pre-Snowden, and it freaked me out. Room 641A was the major giveaway, but there were lots of little things. I told all my friends about it - and got shrugs. They either didn't care, or didn't believe me and wrote it off as conspiracy-theory nonsense. The sad fact is that it takes the media telling people something is a scandal…

I don't know when I personally could claim to "know". It's more like reading rumors, looking at the motives of the parties, and accepting it as the most prudent understanding. Klein/641A was low level and so the major confirmation to technical people - we can extrapolate general implications from the fundamental setup. Binney addressed a higher level but was too early to be appreciated at large.

> "that can't possibly be happening" ... "of course that's happening, I knew it all along, no big deal"

At first glance these appear to be opposed, but they are actually both just cognitive dissonance modulo different unignorable facts.

> one of my friends came to me and was big enough to say "you were right".

This is called taking responsibility. The hurdle wasn't even the admitting you were right, but rather themselves coming to terms with the implications.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#23

Post by jascii » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #19

jascii wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying And no, he didn't flee to china, he transited through Hong Kong, which seems to be a sound tactical choice considering Hong Kongs unique position in international politics.

> There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United State…

> EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it?

A lot of it is public record, no need to leak: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#24

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #21

lern_too_spel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United State…

He was in Hawaii, and not in possession of a teleport. Which country with functioning human rights strong enough to resist American extradition pressure do you suggest he have taken a plane to?

I wouldn't have concocted some ridiculous conspiracy theory to require fleeing to an oppressive country which I would leak intelligence to, but assuming I were that stupid but not stupid enough to look at countries more closely, I probably would have asked for asylum from Ecuador following Assange's example. Snowden was not being followed until he started leaking secrets, so he could have gone literally anywhere on Earth.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#25

Post by jascii » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #17

jascii wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linked article talks about Snowden publishing data on US operations in China as parts of the leaks, it does not seem to corroborate your claim that he was trying to be "getting into the PRC's good graces via transfer of classified material to them".

He "published" that data by specifically leaking it to a Chinese newspaper. He was seeking asylum in Hong Kong at the time. Of course, Beijing did not want a prolonged diplomatic tussle with the US, so they could not let him stay. Their choices were to extradite to the US or to let him go somewhere else, and both options make it not their problem, so they let him (forced him to) go. https://www.theguardian.com/world/…

Yes published. the link you posted is a link to a publication. I am not sure what you are trying to insinuate with the rhetorical quotation marks.. The fact that it is a Chinese newspaper that publishes it seem logical, it is after all information of interest to the Chinese population. (I imagine a US paper's response being something like "NSA spies on China? Duh, that's their job..")

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#26

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

jascii wrote: post #25

lern_too_spel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He "published" that data by specifically leaking it to a Chinese newspaper. He was seeking asylum in Hong Kong at the time. Of course, Beijing did not want a prolonged diplomatic tussle with the US, so they could not let him stay. Their choices were to extradite to the US or to let him go somewhere else, and both options make it not their problem, so they let him (forced him to) go. https://www.theguardian.com/world/…

Yes published. the link you posted is a link to a publication. I am not sure what you are trying to insinuate with the rhetorical quotation marks.. The fact that it is a Chinese newspaper that publishes it seem logical, it is after all information of interest to the Chinese population. (I imagine a US paper's response being something like "NSA spies on China? Duh, that's their job..")

What legitimate reason is there for an American citizen to tell a Chinese newspaper about Chinese computer systems US intelligence agencies have compromised? Is it fine to leak information about CIA-compromised Russian systems as long as I leak it to Pravda and not the NYT or directly to GRU? Your distinction has no practical use.

Also, "published" because Snowden didn't publish anything. He showed documents to SCMP, which publishes a newspaper.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#27

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Aug 01, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

jascii wrote: post #23

lern_too_spel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United State…

> EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? A lot of it is public record, no need to leak: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline

What is in the public record does not include intentional spying on Americans as they have alleged.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#28

Post by torified » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 4:19 AM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #18

dTal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Can you really not remember the infamous Prism PowerPoint slide? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg And China/PRC != Hong Kong, whatever Beijing would have you believe. Why are you posting propaganda?

Yes, I remember how badly Snowden misread it. Prism is a system that ingests data the FBI requested under court ordered wiretaps for specific accounts. The FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit is right there in the slides. https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg This was well-known and commented on at the time Greenwald's articles were being published, with the NYT reporting on the program correctly the very next day by inte…

>taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value?

Have you heard Snowden speak? I've not heard many people in my life who are more educated and eloquent.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#29

Post by torified » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 4:36 AM UTC

dTal wrote: post #16

mindslight wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple answer is that you have been consuming too much mass media, and have succumbed to its insidious bias. This "weaponization" of the Internet narrative is based around casting vulnerabilities as if they're "nobody's fault", rather than mundane gross negligence. The digital realm inherently favors defenders - if there is no logic error, packets just bounce off. And this applies even in the less-certain psychol…

>Everybody involved in tech should have already known Yeah, I knew back in 2008 or so, well pre-Snowden, and it freaked me out. Room 641A was the major giveaway, but there were lots of little things. I told all my friends about it - and got shrugs. They either didn't care, or didn't believe me and wrote it off as conspiracy-theory nonsense. The sad fact is that it takes the media telling people something is a scandal…

>It taught me an unpleasant fact of people's psychology: people have such astonishing status-quo bias that they will rewrite the past to match the present.

Very perceptive. What blows me away is that even knowing the past, they still think the future won't be different.

I'm in Australia, and the amount of apathy is astounding.

Scary developments like the AABill which is to literally force citizen sysadmins to secretly spy on other citizens under threat of 10 years jail, with no oversight and no ability for legal representation.

Passed with bipartisan support, except for some amendments that were meant to happen in February which would have made the catastrophic bill just disastrous.

No amendments have happened, there is no media interest, and no concern from the lobotomized public.

Re: Edward Snowden book coming out Sept. 17

#30

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 4:55 AM UTC

torified wrote: post #28

lern_too_spel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I remember how badly Snowden misread it. Prism is a system that ingests data the FBI requested under court ordered wiretaps for specific accounts. The FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit is right there in the slides. https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg This was well-known and commented on at the time Greenwald's articles were being published, with the NYT reporting on the program correctly the very next day by inte…

>taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value? Have you heard Snowden speak? I've not heard many people in my life who are more educated and eloquent.

If he's so educated why couldn't he pass an analyst test and have to work as a SharePoint admin? Why did he think PRISM was some all-consuming surveillance system, when the documents so clearly stated it wasn't? Why did he think Hong Kong would grant him asylum for leaking Chinese targets? Why couldn't he pass high school? Why is he a libertarian?

I've known many people like that who can convince laypeople that they're smart, but everybody in the field (software engineers at Internet companies in Snowden's case) immediately sees how stupid they are. Look at flat Earthers and antivaxxers for contemporary examples.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/09/what-snowden-get...