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Norweigan oil fund

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Re: Norweigan oil fund

#121

Post by buboard »

vetinari wrote: post #25
panpanna wrote: post #14

> On average, the fund holds 1.4 percent of all of the world’s listed companies. Why fund businesses in other countires? Shouldn't Norway try to set up some more industries at home? Everyone claim Europe (was: EU) needs more VC funding to stop the brain drain. Well, here is a huge pool of money just waiting to be spent

Norway is not an EU member, so by funding EU industries, they would found businesses in other countries ;)

They 're in the EEA and have interest in the growth of european economy in general (presumably to sell them their oil & gas? hehe)

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#122

Post by Majromax »

andy_ppp wrote: post #23
panpanna wrote: post #14

> On average, the fund holds 1.4 percent of all of the world’s listed companies. Why fund businesses in other countires? Shouldn't Norway try to set up some more industries at home? Everyone claim Europe (was: EU) needs more VC funding to stop the brain drain. Well, here is a huge pool of money just waiting to be spent

Because it allows them to maximise the returns? If it was Norway first the fund would be worth nowhere near a trillion dollars...

> Because it allows them to maximise the returns?

That's also the major difference between a sovereign wealth fund, designed to provide income to the state, and an economic development fund.

It also raises real political risks: it takes government competence over the long term to not use such a fund as an easy source of money for patronage-type "investments."

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#123

Post by godelski »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #71
godelski wrote: post #50

Considering this is explicitly stated to be for welfare, it would be really interesting to see a major UBI experiment. If the fund doesn't grow there's 186k 4 per person could be 12k/yr for over 15 years.

15 years is not UBI. If you can’t rely on it being around for the rest of your life it would be insane to leave your career to live on UBI.

Like I said, this would be a good experiment. You can rely on it for at least a decade and that's further ahead than most people think.

But that's also assuming the fund doesn't grow. Which it will. And it UBI works then there is absolutely no reason to think this fund won't get bigger.

But saying we can't try because this can only fund 15 years is kind of an obtuse statement. Indefinite finding requires infinite funding. If that's your requisite good luck funding anything.

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#124

Post by iguy »

blub wrote: post #106
lnsru wrote: post #28

Wow! These people must be extraordinary to use oil money this way! Not kidding! Never been in Norway, but in countries I have ever been this would be barely possible due to corruption and the needs of the politician’s buddies. Like yachts, private jets, Bentleys and Vertu phones. This $186k/person isn’t far from what average German poses: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/617492/cd59713c156ad...

There's a newer study from 2017, where the average is 232.800€, but the median is 70.800€ net. I'm not sure what net/gross is supposed to mean in this context. The big difference between the two suggest an unequal distribution of wealth.

That's a pretty small difference, in such numbers, I think. If everyone had exactly the same job, and saved 10% for retirement their whole working lives, and got promoted occasionally, then you'd get about that much skew.

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#125

Post by namdnay »

cagenut wrote: post #85
lr4444lr wrote: post #34

The Norwegian success is the single biggest piece of evidence as to why the Venezuelan catastrophe was largely avoidable, and the fault of irresponsible leadership.

I can't stand this ideological sports-team type of commentary, so just to add some real information and context (after my downvote): Venezuela produces ~70k barrels per person per day. Norway produces a little more than half as much total oil, but with one-sixth the population it works out to ~330k barrels per person per day. An order of magnitude per-capita difference.

If Venezuela had a fund of 20k per citizen they would definitely not be in the same state as today...

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#126

Post by ptero »

buboard wrote: post #73
lnsru wrote: post #28

Wow! These people must be extraordinary to use oil money this way! Not kidding! Never been in Norway, but in countries I have ever been this would be barely possible due to corruption and the needs of the politician’s buddies. Like yachts, private jets, Bentleys and Vertu phones. This $186k/person isn’t far from what average German poses: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/blob/617492/cd59713c156ad...

Norway was lucky to be a very developed society before oil was discovered. In most countries oil is a curse

I would even make a more general statement: in most countries excess money is usually spent quickly (and usually inefficiently) on the scare-of-the-day.

Developed countries are not immune to this. For example, in late 1990s and early 2000 US budget deficits were falling, then budget went into growing surpluses. But those surpluses were quickly spent on tax breaks and war on terror and US went back into large deficits. Politics :(

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#127

Post by godelski »

belltaco wrote: post #88
Ididntdothis wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

15 years is not UBI. If you can’t rely on it being around for the rest of your life it would be insane to leave your career to live on UBI.

I don't the point of UBI is for everyone to leave their careers. If anything, it's the opposite.

Which is exactly why UBI is generally suggested to give below the poverty line. Enough to survive but not enough to be comfortable. Enough to get you through downturns but not enough where you'll abandon a well paying job.

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#128

Post by logicchains »

michaeljohansen wrote: post #48
BluffFace wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is why they can afford many government programs that the US simply cannot. Without a prolific income stream comparable to Norwegian oil, the only way to provide more social services is to tax individuals and businesses harder. Tax any group too heavily and you create brain drain, which hurts in the long run.

Norwegian software developer here. I pay my taxes with pleasure, knowing that the money supported my education, my ability to go to the hospital, good roads, good airports, and lots of other public functions that are great because we collectively invest in them. I think anything below 20% in taxes simply means a country's public functions will suffer. It's weird to me that Americans have so much against taxes. If a c…

Take a look at what the American government budget is spent on: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... (scroll down to "Total Federal Spending 2015"). The three largest parts of the spending pie, constituting over two thirds of government spending, are "Social Security, Unemployment and Labor", "Medicare and Health", and "Military". Less than 20% goes to education/infrastructure. Many conservative Americans oppose welfare and socialised medicine, and similarly many liberal Americans oppose high military spending (which makes up over half of "Discretionary Spending"), so it's easy to see why they think their taxes are being wasted. There are countries like Singapore that have extremely good infrastructure and schooling with government spending under 20% of GDP, because they spend only on infrastructure, not welfare, so high spending isn't a prerequisite for good infrastructure.

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#129

Post by [deleted] »

michaeljohansen wrote: post #48
BluffFace wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is why they can afford many government programs that the US simply cannot. Without a prolific income stream comparable to Norwegian oil, the only way to provide more social services is to tax individuals and businesses harder. Tax any group too heavily and you create brain drain, which hurts in the long run.

Norwegian software developer here. I pay my taxes with pleasure, knowing that the money supported my education, my ability to go to the hospital, good roads, good airports, and lots of other public functions that are great because we collectively invest in them. I think anything below 20% in taxes simply means a country's public functions will suffer. It's weird to me that Americans have so much against taxes. If a c…

[deleted]

Re: Norweigan oil fund

#130

Post by ashaikh »

coliveira wrote: post #56
lr4444lr wrote: post #34

The Norwegian success is the single biggest piece of evidence as to why the Venezuelan catastrophe was largely avoidable, and the fault of irresponsible leadership.

But what to say about Americans, who squandered natural resources to help the rich, and now the funding to their own social security is en route to insolvency?

A fundamental difference is that for Americans, natural resources are owned by the individual property owner rather than the state. If you find oil on your land in the US, it is yours and you decide what to do with it. In most other countries if there is oil on your land, the government has the exclusive right to oil (or other sub-surface minerals).
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