Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

eff.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 20 posts

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#11

Post by e1ven »

tnzk wrote: post #9

(from outside of US) The article looks like written on the assumption that every Internet user in US is automatically an infringer. Are copyright infringement so popular there?

I am not an expert in the subject, but as far as I understand most countries in the world are party to the Byrne convention.

One of the details that this stipulates is that works are automatically copyrighted upon creation – even if you don't register work with the copyright office it still holds protection.

This means that any picture, text, or other work in a tangible medium that you share without permission could be considered potentially infringing, and leave you open to a lawsuit.

There are defenses you can argue, but that would only be after the lawsuit has already started, potentially costing you time and money for legal representation.

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#12

Post by faissaloo »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #10
faissaloo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not too fussed, I'll just keep using this to point out the absurdity of intellectual property and we can make sure it doesn't come back after western society collapses.

I don't understand this viewpoint. Do you really think there should be zero protections for creative works? That authors who spend years writing a book shouldn't be able to sell it?† How many movies would get created in such a world? How many software developers would exist? I am all for reducing protections of intellectual property. I think copyright should expire after a few decades at most, with much broader and m…

>Do you really think there should be zero protections for creative works?

Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations.

>That authors who spend years writing a book shouldn't be able to sell their text†? Would the movie studios stay in business?

If that is what ends up happening then sure, but it doesn't really matter to me either way, if your enterprise depends on the artificial restriction of an abstract format it's probably not a good business model. For all intents and purposes we already live in a world without intellectual property, your average Joe doesn't pay for music and yet musicians have found alternative business models now it's time for the journals, authors and filmmakers to do the same. Besides, people still buy the official version of Free as in Freedom despite it being a creative commons work.

>Would software developers?

Most definitely, services need to exist and someone will be willing to pay to have it created. Same thing goes for graphic design etc.

>But eliminating it completely? I think that would severely limit the amount of artistic output in the world.

The output of art into the world would explode by the ending of intellectual property. How much art has been lost to takedown requests? How many artists have been discouraged from creating for fear of legal consequences?

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#14

Post by joshuamorton »

faissaloo wrote: post #12
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this viewpoint. Do you really think there should be zero protections for creative works? That authors who spend years writing a book shouldn't be able to sell it?† How many movies would get created in such a world? How many software developers would exist? I am all for reducing protections of intellectual property. I think copyright should expire after a few decades at most, with much broader and m…

>Do you really think there should be zero protections for creative works? Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations. >That authors who spend years writing a book shouldn't be able to sell their text†? Would the movie studios stay in business? If that is what ends up happening then sure, but it doesn't really mat…

Most users do pay for music via streaming services though.

> Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations

How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. If I publish a novel then what, I provide a license that provides a penalty for copying my creative work (now we're back at modern IP laws but with more work for creators), but I'm not protected if someone not party to the contract copies the work and puts it online.

It might increase the amount of amateur art in the world. But, most of that isn't very good. Good artists need to survive and get paid so they can focus on creating more works. Some IP laws help that.

> Same thing goes for graphic design etc.

But you're saying that if I see good graphic design somewhere, I can just take it and use it. No need to hire anyone except for bespoke branding, which most work doesn't need.

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#16

Post by faissaloo »

joshuamorton wrote: post #14
faissaloo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you really think there should be zero protections for creative works? Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations. >That authors who spend years writing a book shouldn't be able to sell their text†? Would the movie studios stay in business? If that is what ends up happening then sure, but it doesn't really mat…

Most users do pay for music via streaming services though. > Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. If I publish a novel then what, I provide a license that provides a penalty for copying my creative work (now we're back at modern IP laws but with mo…

>Most users do pay for music via streaming services though.

Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version.

>How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it.

That's the point, you shouldn't be.

>But, most of that isn't very good. Good artists need to survive and get paid so they can focus on creating more works.

I prefer ameteur art and believe it has more societal value.

>But you're saying that if I see good graphic design somewhere, I can just take it and use it

Sure, but you still need brand recognition and you still can't create counterfeits ergo a graphic designer is still in your best interests.

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#17

Post by joshuamorton »

faissaloo wrote: post #16
joshuamorton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most users do pay for music via streaming services though. > Creative works may be protected by means of the existing contract system, anything beyond that is grossly controlling and leads to absurd situations How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. If I publish a novel then what, I provide a license that provides a penalty for copying my creative work (now we're back at modern IP laws but with mo…

>Most users do pay for music via streaming services though. Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version. >How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. That's the point, you shouldn't be. >But, most of that isn't very good. Good artists need to survive and get paid so they can focus on creating more works. I prefer ameteur…

> Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version.

Consider that your experience may not be the norm. Spotify and apple music have a combined 170 million subscribers. Not to mention various other ways of consuming music by paying for it.

> That's the point, you shouldn't be

Then how do I make a living?

> I prefer ameteur art and believe it has more societal value.

And you're willing to decide that all of society must bow to your whims? Amateur artists are important, but almost by definition their products won't be as good as professional artists. They can't put in the same amount of practice.

> Sure, but you still need brand recognition and you still can't create counterfeits

Erm, why not? IP law is what prevents counter fitting. You've previously suggested that copying and reselling am artistic work is fine, so why couldn't I also copy and resell any other work or brand?

What's to prevent me from sticking the Gucci logo on a purse? Currently the answer is IP law.

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#18

Post by comex »

joshuamorton wrote: post #17
faissaloo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most users do pay for music via streaming services though. Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version. >How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. That's the point, you shouldn't be. >But, most of that isn't very good. Good artists need to survive and get paid so they can focus on creating more works. I prefer ameteur…

> Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version. Consider that your experience may not be the norm. Spotify and apple music have a combined 170 million subscribers. Not to mention various other ways of consuming music by paying for it. > That's the point, you shouldn't be Then how do I make a living? > I prefer ameteur art and believe it…

Personally I think it's unhelpful to group together copyrights, trademarks, and patents into the single term "IP". What prevents counterfeiting is trademark law, which is the most innocuous of the bunch; I haven't seen many cases where something I see as societally beneficial is stopped by trademarks. Copyrights and patents, on the other hand...

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#19

Post by tnzk »

e1ven wrote: post #11
tnzk wrote: post #9

(from outside of US) The article looks like written on the assumption that every Internet user in US is automatically an infringer. Are copyright infringement so popular there?

I am not an expert in the subject, but as far as I understand most countries in the world are party to the Byrne convention. One of the details that this stipulates is that works are automatically copyrighted upon creation – even if you don't register work with the copyright office it still holds protection. This means that any picture, text, or other work in a tangible medium that you share without permission could…

I am aware of the convention, and that anything somewhat creative is supposed to be protected by copyrights.

Are people share the things without permission there, so frequently? Even if so, why should these sharing be legal?

Re: Copyright Lawsuits Could Come to Regular Internet Users Under a New Law

#20

Post by faissaloo »

joshuamorton wrote: post #17
faissaloo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most users do pay for music via streaming services though. Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version. >How can a contract protect me from someone not bound by it. That's the point, you shouldn't be. >But, most of that isn't very good. Good artists need to survive and get paid so they can focus on creating more works. I prefer ameteur…

> Not in my experience, people usually either just use the free version or use a youtube to mp3 converter and keep that version. Consider that your experience may not be the norm. Spotify and apple music have a combined 170 million subscribers. Not to mention various other ways of consuming music by paying for it. > That's the point, you shouldn't be Then how do I make a living? > I prefer ameteur art and believe it…

>Consider that your experience may not be the norm. Spotify and apple music have a combined 170 million subscribers. Not to mention various other ways of consuming music by paying for it

170 million is a vanishingly small number.

>Then how do I make a living?

By doing something people are willing to pay you for.

>And you're willing to decide that all of society must bow to your whims?

Either ameteur artists get screwed or professional ones do, I value ameteur artists more ergo I sacrifice the professional.

>You've previously suggested that copying and reselling am artistic work is fine, so why couldn't I also copy and resell any other work or brand?

Reselling an artistic work is fine, claiming a product was made by someone it wasn't is lying to the consumer.

Post reply on HN