Breaking a WoW addiction • Hacker News Board

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#191

Post by loup-vaillant » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 5:43 PM UTC

forensic wrote: post #181

forensic wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's the point of immortality anyway? Life is just a meaningless sequence of cause-effect relationships. Immortality would mean being trapped by life, eventually you'll explore everything there is to explore in life and be drawn to explore death. The experience of death is more meaningful than life - it is true adventure. Taking a peek for yourself, seeing what's more. Life is pain, so immortality is an infinit…

loup-vaillant said: "You believe we have souls. In that case, the death problem has already been solved by Mother Nature, God, or what have you. Current evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of the non existence of souls. therefore, death isn't a possible adventure, it's nothing. About the meaning of immortality, I recommend the Fun Theory sequence at lesswrong.com" No I don't believe in souls. You are assuming belief…

OK, I was confused by the word "adventure". I assumed that if you said this, then "death" must be… something. I thought we were disagreeing on facts. And of course I can't prove that death is less "meaningful" than life: that's a moral judgement, not a factual belief.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#192

Post by klbarry » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 6:58 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #190

forensic wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning is probably the single most subjective concept that exists. You can't tell someone else what is meaningful for them, which is what the OP is doing and you are implying. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. That's the nature of humanity. We all find meaning in strange and unique ways.

The way we're using "meaning" in this discussion is improper, and I regret not pointing that out earlier. It's improper because the word is not (and cannot) be defined. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. I can't argue that because "meaningful" is not well-defined. However, I can make a related statement, as follows. Building a career in the…

" monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible"

Why are these things valuable? If we define valuable as worth a lot of money, obviously they are. If we define it as extremely useful or important, then that's just a judgement call again, no?

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#193

Post by hristov » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

ryan-allen wrote: post #175

How interesting. I had been playing like mad since the new expansion came out. The other night in a dispassionate drunken decision I cancelled my subscription AND permanently deleted my characters. I wasn't a hardcore player but over about 14 months I had 1500 odd hours racked up across maybe 10 characters. Around 65 days play time. I woke up the next day with a pretty bad hangover, but suddenly had a lot of spare ti…

Another life saved by alcohol.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#194

Post by xal » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 7:14 PM UTC

ced wrote: post #149

xal wrote: post #111

It seems to be stated as a fact in this discussion that you can't play a game such as WoW and do anything other productive on the side, but it's a lot more nuanced. Anecdotally, I've been playing WoW almost non stop since it launched and have been raiding once to three times a week. During this time I also got married, had a kid, founded Shopify, overtook the CEO role, grew it to be a multi million dollar business. I…

I think one of the key parts of parenting for our generation will be to equipt our children with [...] the willpower to handle and enjoy games like WoW properly. How do you do that?

I don't have the answer to it yet. However, it will likely involve exposing them to WoW or it's equivalent and then showing them how more long term sound activities can be even more rewarding.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#195

Post by klbarry » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 7:17 PM UTC

forensic wrote: post #156

JanezStupar wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Paris Hilton is happy? Do you think that the OP's guild leader is happy? Man is a creature of creation, to be happy Man has to improve upon himself and the world, to create by definition one needs to have some values. Else we just become decadent and decadence does not breed happiness.

People in wow ARE creating. That's what makes it so addictive. They are re-arranging the materials of the game to create something they desire. This is the same procedure people use in real life - we rearrange matter and energy to create conditions we desire. There is nothing inherently more meaningful in reality compared to fiction. All of these things are exactly as meaningful as individuals find them to be. Some p…

Forensic, can you send me an email (in my profile)? I'm a fan of your comments and would like to chat.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#196

Post by klipt » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 9:18 PM UTC

forensic wrote: post #165

klipt wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Death is a superset of life Um, no. It's pretty well established that one can start or stop playing WoW at will from real life. There is no evidence that one can return to real life from death. Of course there are some belief systems that claim that death leads to an unimaginably wonderful heaven, but even those belief systems tend to discourage suicide.

>There is no evidence that one can return to real life from death. What about all the dead people who come back to life thanks to medical intervention? This is an outdated perspective. Loads of people now living were once dead. Scientific evidence indicates: Matter starts out dead, becomes alive, then becomes dead again, then rots into the ground and eventually becomes alive again. After your corpse rots it becomes d…

> What about all the dead people who come back to life thanks to medical intervention?

Then they weren't really dead.

> This is an outdated perspective. Loads of people now living were once dead.

Maybe if you're using an outdated definition of death. By death I mean brain death, from which there is no recovery by definition ("the irreversible end of all brain activity").

The cessation of breathing etc. is no longer a useful definition of "death" precisely because of the "coming back to life" you describe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death#Problems_of_definition

> Dead things become alive through natural processes. But to be alive you first have to be dead.

The dead things are not "you" in any useful sense of the word. Yes I know it's the same atoms, but "you" are not just your atoms. "You" are an emergent pattern of thoughts and memories, which cannot begin to emerge until your brain develops.

Sure, you can take the cosmological approach that we are all connected, all things are one etc., but in practice, once your definition of "you" no longer distinguishes "you" from "not you", it's no longer a useful word.

> Your superset theorem of meaning is probably a rationalization of some deep emotional bias that has roots in your genes and early childhood environment.

Sure, I clearly stated it was just my opinion. All opinions have roots in genes and experiences. But the experience of arguing with you has thus far failed to change my opinion, it's merely persuaded me that you use very different definitions for words than I do ;)

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#197

Post by JanezStupar » Sat, Jan 01, 2011, 10:48 PM UTC

forensic wrote: post #156

JanezStupar wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Paris Hilton is happy? Do you think that the OP's guild leader is happy? Man is a creature of creation, to be happy Man has to improve upon himself and the world, to create by definition one needs to have some values. Else we just become decadent and decadence does not breed happiness.

People in wow ARE creating. That's what makes it so addictive. They are re-arranging the materials of the game to create something they desire. This is the same procedure people use in real life - we rearrange matter and energy to create conditions we desire. There is nothing inherently more meaningful in reality compared to fiction. All of these things are exactly as meaningful as individuals find them to be. Some p…

I played wow - so I know pretty well whats going on there - at least in the game circa 2005/2006, before the additions of casual content.

Road to 60 was actually pretty fun - but once you hit 60 - thats when it really begins. If you want to mean something, you have to raid almost every single day for 4-6 hours - else you don't get a guild and there are no casual raiding guilds since content is so hard that you need to be well versed to get it done.

I'm well aware that one is playing wow because it makes sense emotionally not rationally - but there is difference between "positive emotional action" and "negative emotional action" (meaning, repetition - grind, peer pressure, job like schedules,...).

So I would argue that no, people in WOW are not creating, they are destroying the very fabric that creates society.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#198

Post by Luyt » Sun, Jan 02, 2011, 5:10 AM UTC

silencio wrote: post #163

Luyt wrote: post #15

I play WoW for five years now. When I started, I used to be an occasional player. But when I hit level 60 (that was the highest level a few years ago) it was impossible to advance further without being in a regular raiding guild. So I started hardcoring: obligatory raids from 19:00 to 23:30, each evening, five evenings per week. Lower attendance was not tolerated. And gathering/grinding materials for potions/powerups…

I don't know how casual you are or how long it's been since you last played, but Blizzard flipped everything around for casual players not in a guild with Cataclysm. Those features you name are still there, but now they're next to rated BGs, guild achievements, and more features you can only really get while playing with a group of other players, i.e. a guild. Even basic non-raiding perks like 15 minute hearth and in…

Ah, I've always stayed in friendly/social guilds, just not the hardcore guilds anymore ;-)

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#199

Post by tigerthink » Sun, Jan 02, 2011, 11:14 AM UTC

zumda wrote: post #183

slyn wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but I don't really see how that pertains to the discussion unless you have some extra moral or philosophical objection to recreational drug use that you feel also applies to this video game. Its a hobby. I think some people get sucked in and take it too far, but I also think the vast majority don't. I'm just offering a perspective from the "don't" category.

I had a friend who literally forgot to go to work for two days because he was so busy preparing for a soccer match. Or I'm sure we all know a guy/gal who was/is drinking all too much. My point is, you can take any hobby too far, it doesn't matter what it is. The interesting thing is, no one blames soccer or alcohol (most of the time it is some deeper issue thats the problem, not alcohol), but everyone is blaming WoW.…

Some hobbies are more dangerous than others. I think it makes sense for us to discourage people from getting started on the more dangerous hobbies. Also, people do blame alcohol.

Re: Breaking a WoW addiction

#200

Post by javert » Sun, Jan 02, 2011, 7:45 PM UTC

klbarry wrote: post #192

javert wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way we're using "meaning" in this discussion is improper, and I regret not pointing that out earlier. It's improper because the word is not (and cannot) be defined. I guarantee there are people who find WOW to be far more meaningful than building a career in the health field. I can't argue that because "meaningful" is not well-defined. However, I can make a related statement, as follows. Building a career in the…

" monetary wealth, respect from peers, self-sufficiency, and ultimately self-esteem and the genuine, pervasive kind of happiness that self-esteem makes possible" Why are these things valuable? If we define valuable as worth a lot of money, obviously they are. If we define it as extremely useful or important, then that's just a judgement call again, no?

You're making the point that in order to figure out what (if anything) is valuable, we need to have a standard of value, and you're absolutely right.

Now, there are lots of potential standards of value. e.g. "immediate pleasure" (hedonism); what's good for others (altruism); etc.

The proper standard of value is: what is good or bad for an individual's life, as a human being. So, that's how I'm defining "valuable" here.

Why is that the proper standard of value? Well, any deviation from that standard is going to be destructive to life, whereas following it will sustain life. Living successfully is a prerequisite (and the primary component) of happiness (in the fullest sense of the word--i.e. a non-contradictory enjoyment of being alive and all that that entails).

My statements here are not to be taken as standing on their own. There are lots of questions to ask. (A basic one would be: How can you claim to actually know anything, in the first place?.) I'm not going to try to present the full philosophical justification (i.e. present and validate an entire philosophical system), but it's out there if you look.