Advertising Is a Cancer on Society • Hacker News Board

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#441

Post by mrmuagi » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:39 PM UTC

davidivadavid wrote: post #251

picometer wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I think the author addresses this via the "cancer" metaphor: > It's a malignant mutation of an idea that efficient markets need a way to connect goods and services with people wanting to buy them. > Over time, it became increasingly manipulative and dishonest. It also became more effective. In the process, it grew to consume a significant amount of resources of every company on the planet. I interpre…

That analogy applies to literally anything that can grow. Great. Startups are a cancer. Technology is a cancer.

>> I interpret the loose analogy as: if controlled advertising is like normal cell growth, then out-of-control resource-consuming advertising is like cancerous cell growth.

> That analogy applies to literally anything that can grow. Great. Startups are a cancer. Technology is a cancer.

Not a logical flow in that analogy from my perspective. There is legitimately bad advertising out there that is blatantly malicious -- malware, popups, click jackers, spyware, non-consensual tracking, etc. -- that could be described by that to a tee. But the original article goes further and calls all advertising cancerous which is just plain dogmatic and frankly, extremist. Its extremely easy to put down advertising, but the truth is everything in life is advertising, since advertising is just a game of attention -- predating the internet and printed paper. I think an average internet denizen has a viewpoint somewhere between.

Then we have people who work in marketing, and might see the article and be opposed to the article. But I don't think that matters. Advertisement is not going to stop because of some article putting it in a undefended spotlight, it's a fulfilling prophecy from a game theory perspective precisely because you can't not advertise -- as the article notes.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#442

Post by andyburke » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:39 PM UTC

Zeklandia wrote: post #418

dwild wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have agreed in the past but now that my SO has started an escape room, if your ideal world existed, she would be bankrupt right now. Most ads isn't about manipulation, it's just about getting your attention and reminding you that this product exists. Ads are the only way to reach her market. You could argue that search is a good one too (which is true), but sadly people have trouble paying to watch videos onl…

If you have to tell people they need something then they don't need it. Escape rooms are an entertainment luxury. When there is essential work that needs to be done (infrastructure, healthcare, education, &c.), it makes sense that it takes psychological manipulation to convince people that what they really need to do with their time and effort is temporary entertainment. If you want more customers, provide something…

Entertainment and relaxation are not unnecessary. Especially in our late capitalist civilizations.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#443

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:40 PM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #434

cousin_it wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there could be a middle ground: keep most of the internet ad-free, but allow users to do explicit "commercial searches" for e.g. vacuum cleaners, or hotels, or fun things to do in their area. Then the escape room would show up there.

I've actually thought about that model a lot recently. If Google does this then it's one more step towards their goal of getting somebody what they want. Ads usually only show when you're typing a phrase which correlates with a product. Whenever you type "vacuum cleaners", that's you signalling you're likely searching for a commercial product. If not, ignore the ad. But let's be honest, search ads are not the problem…

[deleted]

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#444

Post by Zeklandia » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:42 PM UTC

therealdrag0 wrote: post #435

Zeklandia wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to tell people they need something then they don't need it. Escape rooms are an entertainment luxury. When there is essential work that needs to be done (infrastructure, healthcare, education, &c.), it makes sense that it takes psychological manipulation to convince people that what they really need to do with their time and effort is temporary entertainment. If you want more customers, provide something…

But we live in a culture that can afford entertainment luxury, if people don't find this gals business, they will spend that time on Netflix or at a bar instead.. The zero-sum game you propose is not really close to what would happen without advertising imo.

We only tell our selves we can afford. The truth is we are constantly putting off work that needs to be done as if some future generation will fix all these problems.

There are tens of millions of Americans living in homelessness, shanty towns, and trailer parks. We need to build housing (apartments, homes) for them. No individual person can do that. We have to organize ourselves to tackle these kinds of problems cooperatively. However, our society insists that we allow the market to organize our activities.

The market is controlled by exchange, and people who can afford to exchange more than anyone else can control the market. The majority of our wealth is concentrated in the hands of a minority of people. Thus the market mostly organizes people to solve their concerns while paying no mind to people who cannot afford to engage with it.

Either you can fix the market (something arguably impossible to do) or you can use a different method of organizing humans into cooperative efforts.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#445

Post by cousin_it » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #434

cousin_it wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there could be a middle ground: keep most of the internet ad-free, but allow users to do explicit "commercial searches" for e.g. vacuum cleaners, or hotels, or fun things to do in their area. Then the escape room would show up there.

I've actually thought about that model a lot recently. If Google does this then it's one more step towards their goal of getting somebody what they want. Ads usually only show when you're typing a phrase which correlates with a product. Whenever you type "vacuum cleaners", that's you signalling you're likely searching for a commercial product. If not, ignore the ad. But let's be honest, search ads are not the problem…

Yeah, I've been saying for years that someone should make a search engine for the ad-free segment of the internet :-) Then we could use it most of the time, and fall back to Google explicitly when doing queries with commercial intent.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#446

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:45 PM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #402

TeMPOraL wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace GM with a factory, and advertising with dumping toxic waste into the local river. Would you still cry about the lost jobs if someone proposed banning dumping toxic waste into rivers?

Strawman argument. When advertising works it has some upside for everyone (customers, platforms and advertisers), dumping toxic waste only benefits the dumper.

I don't see the upside of the crapton of billboards I pass daily, or the flashing, potentially malware-inducing garbage I would see everywhere on the Internet if I turned my ad blocker.

Advertising has ridiculous externalities; this is what makes it similar to the toxic waste scenario.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#447

Post by chipotle_coyote » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

Zeklandia wrote: post #418

dwild wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have agreed in the past but now that my SO has started an escape room, if your ideal world existed, she would be bankrupt right now. Most ads isn't about manipulation, it's just about getting your attention and reminding you that this product exists. Ads are the only way to reach her market. You could argue that search is a good one too (which is true), but sadly people have trouble paying to watch videos onl…

If you have to tell people they need something then they don't need it. Escape rooms are an entertainment luxury. When there is essential work that needs to be done (infrastructure, healthcare, education, &c.), it makes sense that it takes psychological manipulation to convince people that what they really need to do with their time and effort is temporary entertainment. If you want more customers, provide something…

Your argument sounds an awful lot like "how dare you do anything escapist when there are big problems in the world."

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#448

Post by jiveturkey » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #265

wpietri wrote: post #23

He doesn't quite say it by name, but most advertising is a classic arms race. Especially given how the internet now makes information easily available, a great deal of advertising is about manipulating consumers to pick company A's products over those from competitors B, C, and D. This forces those other companies to spend to get and keep customers. It's pure waste. For example, everybody on the planet is now familia…

I would have agreed in the past but now that my SO has started an escape room, if your ideal world existed, she would be bankrupt right now. Most ads isn't about manipulation, it's just about getting your attention and reminding you that this product exists. Ads are the only way to reach her market. You could argue that search is a good one too (which is true), but sadly people have trouble paying to watch videos onl…

> Most ads isn't about manipulation, it's just about getting your attention and reminding you that this product exists.

I'd wager you're wrong, unless of course you are an ad executive which it doesn't sound like you are?

Maybe, maybe, most ads by dollar spent is about brand awareness.

But for sure, most ads by quantity are about manipulation.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#449

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

cameronbrown wrote: post #398

TeMPOraL wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary reason word of mouth doesn't always work is because of advertising. If you don't scream, nobody will hear you over everyone else's screams. But if people stopped screaming, then they could actually hear conversations.

So in your world where advertising went away and Facebook/Google/YouTube/etc are gone (don't pretend they'd survive without ads), where exactly do you do the screaming? In real world public spaces? That's an even more toxic form of advertising and far more wasteful.

You don't scream. You talk to people. They talk to other people. If your message is worth it, it'll organically reach those who'd benefit from it. Also, you could post your message in places where people interested in the kind of problems you're solving come to look for solutions. Trade shows, product catalogs, storefronts, and their on-line equivalents.

> don't pretend they'd survive without ads

I don't see why Facebook and Google couldn't work with a non-advertising-based business model. You might end up having to actually pay a little bit for it, though.

> In real world public spaces? That's an even more toxic form of advertising and far more wasteful.

And it's already saturated. This needs to go too.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#450

Post by Zeklandia » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 10:49 PM UTC

andyburke wrote: post #442

Zeklandia wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to tell people they need something then they don't need it. Escape rooms are an entertainment luxury. When there is essential work that needs to be done (infrastructure, healthcare, education, &c.), it makes sense that it takes psychological manipulation to convince people that what they really need to do with their time and effort is temporary entertainment. If you want more customers, provide something…

Entertainment and relaxation are not unnecessary. Especially in our late capitalist civilizations.

Entertainment and relaxation are necessary, you are right. However, both can be done in ways that are at best productive and at least not-counterproductive.

Entertainment does not have to unproductive. People who play sports or do other recreational activities are working to maintain their physical health while having fun. There are games of all sorts you can play to help you improve life skills or even physical and mental abilities.

If your relaxation requires someone else's work, it is counter productive (think resort-type venues that need staff to operate). There are plenty of ways to relax and unwind that don't take away from other people's efforts. Visiting a nature park or a museum, for example. The work to maintain natural resources or to educate and inspire people is necessary beyond simply pleasing people.