Live data from Hacker News

Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

bloomberg.com

341–350 of 387 posts

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though:…

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

Why are you so hostile to someone suffering and who has lost their life? I will address some of your points:

>Government isn’t a charity and nor should it be. >Certainly it should provide a minimal safety net to >ensure people aren’t starving in the streets, but >charity is really about the local community, local >organizations, and local priorities. And giving to >charity should be voluntary, not compelled at the >point of a gun like taxes are.

For all the stats Americans like to show about high rates of giving...little of it makes it to those in need. Governemnt running essential programs is so ALL have access. Not just those a charity CHOOSES as worthy. America proves the "charity covers this" BS doesn't work. taxes are needed because people with your mindset wont do their part vountarily and pick and choose who "deserves". Maybe if people who decry such systems were more kind and helpful we wouldn't need taxes. If charity was sufficient we wouldnt be discussing this. it really boils down to people with your mindset saying "Nobody can tell me what to do".

> I highly resent someone that has been unemployed for >literally years while I took whatever shitty jobs I >could find to stay off the street. I also resent >people that never cared about buying health insurance >(for example the young and healthy that tend to avoid >buying insurance,) then they get a critical illness >and go bankrupt and blame “the system”

I worked multiple, service to society jobs. I HAD insurance which I lost with them. I did as much as I could after being disabled but things just get worse. I resent YOU framing of this as you have. It's cruel and unempathetic proving my point. Feel fortunate you were able to make it instead of punching down.

>The other problem I have is when people claim that >medical bills “bankrupted” them. Do we know what that >means? That means they didn’t have to pay any of that >money back. The debts were discharged by bankruptcy.

I didn't say I filed bankruptcy. I said I was bankrupted by medical costs. I spent most of my fairly significant life savings, earned through hard work and a frugal nature, paying for the medical effects of the surgery and surviving this long. Nothing was discharged and you are simply wrong.

>America is a place we’re you can start over, you can >rebuild, and bankruptcy isn’t some life sentence >dooming you to poverty.

If your only issue is a financial disaster its POSSIBLE to rebuild some sort of life through effort if things work out. My issues are more than financial and I can't just dig in and create as I could when I was young and healthy. You are strongly victim blaming and you don't seem to care at all how harmful your position is to suffering people. It sure harmed me. I hope whatever you are dealing with that makes you so resentful of victims gets better and that is genuine, not passive aggression. Everyone deserves peace, even those I disagree with fundamentally. Empathy is required for a society. It's not an excuse or "liberal propaganda".

I am a real person. A human being. I am not a political argument or keeping YOU down. I lost my life due to this system. I was refused help due to this system. I will most likely end things because there is no way out. How dare you twist every aspect of that essential experience into some debate to reinforce your selfish position. This is exactly WHY I have no hope. If people spent as much time HELPING in this world as they do arguing why they shouldn't help then it would be a wonderful place. It's not YOUR life that was stolen and is ending. I cannot imagine ever treating someone that way.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#342
post #142
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the just-world fallacy is a much more appropriate term. > the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person

Too many wealthy Americans suffer from some version of this. If you are born to wealth and grow up in wealth I guess your viewpoint of the universe won’t be a very accurate one. The disproportionate power that wealth grants to you then becomes even more destructive.

What I cannot understand is how so many who suffer or struggle themselves attack fellow victims of this. Punching sideways or down i disgusting but it seems people are always looking for someone to blame and feel better than. This entire experience made me a misanthrope in large. I cannot every discuss my experience without a large number of attacks. It's comforting in a small way to see its not the majority in an international audience, but the American audience and many interactions are very hostile to someone else's pain.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#343
post #107

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. Sadly, this ancient proverb is all too true. "All the brothers of a poor man hate him; How much more he is shunned by his friends! He pursues them with requests, but no one responds." Perhaps this article will help lift your spirits. http://bit.ly/2K6cVi5

Thanks for the kindness. I know there are good people out there. I know even being poor you can have joy. I have moments of it...my cat...photography...a small number of people I love...but its not enough when you can't get off Maslow's bottom rungs.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Care to cite a time where that ever happened?" There's a documentary about the Mayo clinic on netflix. In it, a woman finally recieves a diagnosis of her mysterious and debilitating illness, of which she is pretty sure she would die from without diagnosis or treatment. She responds to initial treatment, which makes her hopeful the quality of life will finally approve. Then she no longer has money, and cannot have tr…

From what I'm told should be thousands of stories like this, why can't you find one where you can prove that the person died? It's all rumor and second hand stories. If someone in my family died due to someone refusing them medical care I'd be all over the media about it.

It's not just about dying. It's about living. I have had minimal to no access to quality medical care in America since I went through this. I have had to choose NOT to seek care for things I needed to because I cannot pay for it. I have been denied many things a reasonable person would expect to receive. There is only one reason people defend this system...ego. They cannot accept that American Capitalism isn't the best thing ever. Their pride matters more than other people. It's shameful.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Just trying to understand the facts. I know several people on ACA plans, and I do not believe your experience is representative of the majority. Nevertheless, my comments aren't targeted at you. I maintain that half the median income can vary a great deal in quality of life between different countries.

Linking health care to taxes is a tremendously stupid idea. I wouldn't be surprised if lots of people who were already on employer provided health plans didn't even look at ACA options or were poorly served. In America if you are really poor you are fucked if you claw your way up slightly you are barely better off or worse than when you started. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the people you know on ACA plans aren't b…

And you'd be wrong. In any event, again, your expensive illnesses are not representative, and many people in Washington at half the median income would be getting along suitably well. That same stat in Arkansas may be a very different story. It's at least hypothetically possible (and I don't have a great deal invested in the thesis) that industrious upstanding people in the bottom quartile are actually better off in Japan than in the US, and that could be precisely because of those virtues. The author takes it as a given that being in the bottom quartile is poverty everywhere and concludes those virtues don't matter (see, both countries have lots of people in the bottom quartile -- those Japanese virtues don't make them better off). But because half the median income means different things in different places, I cannot make it there. Not, at least, without more information.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#346
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're not getting an employment contract, for example, to work in Burger King in Stockholm because it wouldn't pass the labour market needs test. As far as I know there isn't any labour market test in Sweden anymore. The unions only gets to comment on whether the contract is similar to that of the collective agreement for the sector. http://www.nordiclabourjournal.org/i-fokus/in-focus-2013/soc...

Are you saying a poor American can go work at Burger King in Sweden? That's revelatory.

Yes, you can get a work permit as for example a dishwasher at a restaurant (In theory at Burger King, but maybe they wouldn't hire unqualified migrants for image reasons). You can also bring your family and kids. I think you don't have the right to some things for the first year though. But as long as you are paid the normal wage and benefits you can get permanent residency after four years, and citizenship after another five.

This is the best document I could find: https://portal.research.lu.se/portal/files/40268826/Labor_Mi...

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#347
post #235
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.

To go a step further we probably should license dish washers. To make sure they know the risks of spreading food borne disease.

[deleted]

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything. The point of the article is precisely that the US _doesn't_ have free everything, much less adequate support for the poor. > it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US. Another way to look at the issue is that Democrats generally…

> This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US. False. While donations to churches are tax deductible, they aren't automatically 501c3 orgs. Source: my church applied to be one, in the event that church donations aren't automatically tax deductible. > For someone who mentions churches several times, you seem to have missed one of the core lessons about caring for thy neighbor. Y…

> You seem to have missed the part where he mentioned 'my community'.

See the parable of the Good Samaritan. Jesus' own interpretation of commandment to "Love thy neighbor" is that _all_ people are one's neighbor, not just one's set of geographically near persons.

It's a lesson in empathy, which you seem to have missed as well.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#349
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of abstraction in your statements culminating in an attempt to paint me as unethical. I wish we could just talk like friends who happen to disagree on policy. I don't believe a functional health care market where providers must compete on price and quality is as static as the system we have now. The "rationing" you describe that we have today is because we don't have a functional market or insurance sy…

>I wish we could just talk like friends who happen to disagree on policy. I think it's a terrible mistake to treat this as a wonky policy issue rather than an urgent ethical issue. That conception of things is part of the reason that it's been so hard to reform the system. > I don't believe a functional health care market where providers must compete on price and quality is as static as the system we have now. The "r…

> I think it's a terrible mistake to treat this as a wonky policy issue rather than an urgent ethical issue.

Your passion is admirable, but no need to insult, friend. I'm not a policy wonk, I just disagree with you. I don't have the same faith in government's ability to deliver services as you do. America is especially bad at delivering services, given our tendency towards crony capitalism and a disengaged public. It is possible to make things worse than they are now with totally well-meaning, but flawed, economic and social policies.

> it should be easy for you to reference a statement to this effect.

I searched on DDG, got tons of good hits for "debate ban private health insurance" and I picked the first link. The socialists (who aren't looking too hopeless in the polls and actually stand a chance at being the nominee) want to run things soup to nuts, no surprise here. Harris walked it back afterward, Sanders stood his ground and beat her over the head for a lack of conviction.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-harris-idUSK...

> Harris and U.S. Senate colleague Bernie Sanders were the only two candidates to raise their hands during Thursday night’s second Democratic debate when asked, "Who here would abolish their private health insurance in favor of a government-run plan?"

> On Wednesday night, U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio were the only two candidates to raise their hands when asked if they would scrap private insurance.

Please just watch the debates and don't give anyone a pass. I'm counting on you and others to not pick an unelectable wacko to run against Trump. Full disclosure, I didn't vote for Trump (or Hillary) in 2016.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#350
post #140

> Defined by the percentage of the population earning less than half of the median national income, I'm not sure I buy their definition of poverty. It speaks more about the income disparity than people living in without basic food and shelter covered, which I think the term implies. It might be more meaningful if it were the mean, but as is a few really high income earners would skew the results. I don't think using…

Median is the 50th percentile, it's unaffected by Bill Gates. So half the median is a better measure than half the mean. However as you say it's still a measure of disparity, not an absolute level.

The median is the 50th percentile including outliers, so the Bill Gates of the world to impact it. The mean normally removes outliers to get a better idea of the real average.
Post reply on HN