Advertising Is a Cancer on Society • Hacker News Board

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#161

Post by carapace » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 7:58 PM UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

> Edward Louis Bernays ... was an Austrian-American pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations".

> Of his many books, Crystallizing Public Opinion (1923) and Propaganda (1928) gained special attention as early efforts to define and theorize the field of public relations. Citing works of writers such as Gustave Le Bon, Wilfred Trotter, Walter Lippmann, and his own double uncle Sigmund Freud, he described the masses as irrational and subject to herd instinct—and outlined how skilled practitioners could use crowd psychology and psychoanalysis to control them in desirable ways.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#162

Post by LeifCarrotson » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #103

blodovnik wrote: post #8

This is a dogmatic viewpoint I think often seen in very technical people who are unwilling to see the interconnectedness of how our society works. I bet there's any number of things this person values that simply wouldn't exist without advertising. It's a childish and immature opinion really. Anyone who hates advertising this much should show their commitment by working at an organization that does not advertise. Loa…

I've worked at an organization that failed to advertise its products, causing massive inefficiency & waste - lots of people have access to our technology but don't know about it and end up implementing the same basic CRUD app over and over. Don't underestimate the economic loss caused by people just not knowing there's a better way.

The main thesis of the article:

Real world advertising is not about informing, it's about convincing. Over time, it became increasingly manipulative and dishonest. It also became more effective. In the process, it grew to consume a significant amount of resources of every company on the planet.

There's a huge difference between informational advertising, which I support, and manipulative advertising, which is reprehensible. Telling people that their custom CRUD app could be ready quicker, cheaper to support, and contain fewer bugs if they used your product is great. Bombarding people who already know about your product and its half dozen competitors with subconscious messages that your competitors are evil and that if they use your product their sex appeal will increase is dishonest and stupid.

I work at an organization that does almost no marketing; we mostly spread by word of mouth. We have no shortage of customers or work, and growth would be harmful to the quality of our product, so we're pretty content with our place in the market.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#163

Post by NegativeLatency » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

conception wrote: post #135

solipsism wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May we be allowed cake and ice cream or would you ban those as well? Maybe you can get a special license if it's a birthday?

Just tax sugar.

Or stop subsidizing corn

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#164

Post by Retra » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #103

blodovnik wrote: post #8

This is a dogmatic viewpoint I think often seen in very technical people who are unwilling to see the interconnectedness of how our society works. I bet there's any number of things this person values that simply wouldn't exist without advertising. It's a childish and immature opinion really. Anyone who hates advertising this much should show their commitment by working at an organization that does not advertise. Loa…

I've worked at an organization that failed to advertise its products, causing massive inefficiency & waste - lots of people have access to our technology but don't know about it and end up implementing the same basic CRUD app over and over. Don't underestimate the economic loss caused by people just not knowing there's a better way.

Informing people about your product is not the same as manipulating them into buying it.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#165

Post by subjectsigma » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

blodovnik wrote: post #8

This is a dogmatic viewpoint I think often seen in very technical people who are unwilling to see the interconnectedness of how our society works. I bet there's any number of things this person values that simply wouldn't exist without advertising. It's a childish and immature opinion really. Anyone who hates advertising this much should show their commitment by working at an organization that does not advertise. Loa…

Found the ad tech guy.

We do not have to accept the current state of advertising because it may or may not have had good effects in the past (practically by accident). Wanting things to change for the better is the opposite of dogma, and I daresay most advertising is much more childish and immature than this blog post. It is not hypocritical to hate ads and be subjected to them/benefit from them as they are so pervasive as to be unavoidable; they can also still have a net harm even if you think that orgs "depend" on them for income, which is dubious.

And just for the record, I work for a nonprofit who advertises minimally, and definitely not to the public.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#166

Post by jtx22 » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

zentiggr wrote: post #93

Aperocky wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "Something useful" though? The advertisement money eventually makes it to Google, broadcasters, sites, TV-channels, sports events and people running those organization in term gets more money to spend on [Potentially useful stuff]. It's not like the money magically vanishes to never be seen again, and business to business transaction like this make the money flow faster instead of slower. Economy is…

> It's not like the money magically vanishes to never be seen again No, it remains in corporate budgets, which, without all the marketing spend, can be shifted to better wages, charity work, capital investments, better wages, safety and health initiatives, better wages...

You should start a company and pay better wages.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#167

Post by jdietrich » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

There's good advertising and bad advertising. Calling all advertising "cancer" is ludicrous.

My YouTube subscription feed is full of stuff that is some form of advertising - music instrument retailers demonstrating new products, advertorial content from tool manufacturers, tutorials from software companies and so on. It's all paid for out of the marketing budget, it's all intended to sell more product, but it's also a useful service to me as a consumer.

Back in the day, I bought computer and music magazines in large part because of the advertising. It's how I kept up to date with the industry, it's how I learned about new products that weren't necessarily available in my town and it's how I found out the market price for products.

How do consumers find out about new products without some form of advertising? How do manufacturers find a market without some form of advertising?

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#168

Post by organsnyder » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

zentiggr wrote: post #93

Aperocky wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define "Something useful" though? The advertisement money eventually makes it to Google, broadcasters, sites, TV-channels, sports events and people running those organization in term gets more money to spend on [Potentially useful stuff]. It's not like the money magically vanishes to never be seen again, and business to business transaction like this make the money flow faster instead of slower. Economy is…

> It's not like the money magically vanishes to never be seen again No, it remains in corporate budgets, which, without all the marketing spend, can be shifted to better wages, charity work, capital investments, better wages, safety and health initiatives, better wages...

More likely it would go to stock buybacks and shareholder dividends.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#169

Post by acomjean » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #84

wpietri wrote: post #23

He doesn't quite say it by name, but most advertising is a classic arms race. Especially given how the internet now makes information easily available, a great deal of advertising is about manipulating consumers to pick company A's products over those from competitors B, C, and D. This forces those other companies to spend to get and keep customers. It's pure waste. For example, everybody on the planet is now familia…

How do you define "Something useful" though? The advertisement money eventually makes it to Google, broadcasters, sites, TV-channels, sports events and people running those organization in term gets more money to spend on [Potentially useful stuff]. It's not like the money magically vanishes to never be seen again, and business to business transaction like this make the money flow faster instead of slower. Economy is…

I find advertising useful mainly when it’s an event I didn’t know was happening and aren’t always checking for. Usually for consumer products I find it not so useful.

Re: Advertising Is a Cancer on Society

#170

Post by criddell » Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

oneil512 wrote: post #150

Without ads we wouldn't have a way to incentive free content creation. Simple as that.

The only reason we call it content is because it's just filler for the spaces between ads. I understand why ad tech and platform people call it that, but it kind of bugs me when people call themselves content creators.