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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#261

Post by mr_overalls »

briandear wrote: post #244
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend recently moved in with me so we've done a lot of research. It's relatively easy to move here from within Europe, as in, if you move from an EU country you have a right to work and live here, and you get the same rights and responsibilities as soon as you register yourself as living here. If you want to move here from outside of the EU it's a whole other matter though. It boils down to two things though:…

How ironic that the “progressive” European welfare states have highly restricted immigration and America naturalizes more new citizens each year than the rest of the world combined. The US also allows illegal aliens de facto residence assuming they haven’t committed a significant crime. We even provide free education. If those illegal aliens have a child in the US, we give that child citizenship and subsequently make…

> You can’t have nearly open borders and free everything.

The point of the article is precisely that the US _doesn't_ have free everything, much less adequate support for the poor.

> it is interesting that Republicans give to charity at a vastly higher rates than Democrats

This is because churches are are automatically considered 501c3 charities in the US. Another way to look at the issue is that Democrats generally support a systematic approach to social welfare - i.e. a sufficient government-run social safety net - rather than an uncoordinated collection of religious groups to administer benefits.

> I’m sorry for people who have bad luck, but where is their family? Their church? Their local community?

Not everyone has family. Not everyone attends church. You realize that impoverished communities are a thing, right? Have you never been to the rural South? To an inner city neighborhood?

> How is someone outside of my community or family circle my problem?

Wow. I don't think I can make an argument that will give you a basic sense of human decency. For someone who mentions churches several times, you seem to have missed one of the core lessons about caring for thy neighbor.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#262

Post by 11235853211 »

jokoon wrote: post #126

I have been unemployed in a major part of my life, I live in france and am 34 now, and honestly, the fact that we still have welfare here that allows people to live a decent life is a lifesaver. What I'm scared about, is how people often look down on welfare recipients, and how politicians could decide to force me to work somehow. As long as slavery is forbidden, nobody can force me to work. What is weird is that in…

Here in the USA, slavery is still legal under case of incarceration. In Florida, Texas, and Louisianna, prisoners are forced to work without pay. In other states, you are charged "prison rent" that is magnitudes higher than you could ever make working per day.

As it has always been, this prison slavery system generates massive profits for the companies that use it, such as Amazon and Walmart. If you are a free worker, it is likely you will be shouldered with student loan and medical debt. Not to mention the debt accrued when financing a home.

Our nation was built on free labor, slavery is one of the driving factors of American economic success. Yet the workers do not enjoy first world rights and living conditions, it makes you think about the efficiencies of such an economic system.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#263

Post by SolaceQuantum »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #253
foldr wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech salaries in NYC and SF aren't 5 or 6 times higher than tech salaries in London. >I own my home and support my wife and daughter by myself in a low crime suburban area in the US, that isn't possible anywhere I could find in the UK. I'm not sure what you're saying at this point. I grew up in a low crime suburban area in the UK. My Dad worked, my mom stayed at home. They owned the house. My Dad works as a programme…

> Tech salaries in NYC and SF aren't 5 or 6 times higher than tech salaries in London. I've seen 75k USD salaries commonly in London and 400k+ is not unheard of in fang companies. >Erm, no. You will not likely meet the eligibility requirements for medicaid. That's just wishful thinking. If that's how the system worked, medical bankruptcies wouldn't happen. If I have money and insurance why do I need assistance? The d…

"Care to cite a time where that ever happened?"

There's a documentary about the Mayo clinic on netflix. In it, a woman finally recieves a diagnosis of her mysterious and debilitating illness, of which she is pretty sure she would die from without diagnosis or treatment. She responds to initial treatment, which makes her hopeful the quality of life will finally approve. Then she no longer has money, and cannot have treatment anymore. She leaves the clinic and we never know what happens to her.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#264

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

foldr wrote: post #258
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech salaries in NYC and SF aren't 5 or 6 times higher than tech salaries in London. I've seen 75k USD salaries commonly in London and 400k+ is not unheard of in fang companies. >Erm, no. You will not likely meet the eligibility requirements for medicaid. That's just wishful thinking. If that's how the system worked, medical bankruptcies wouldn't happen. If I have money and insurance why do I need assistance? The d…

>I've seen 75k USD salaries commonly in London and 400k+ is not unheard of in fang companies. You're just comparing a typical dev salary in London to an unusually high dev salary for NYC or SF. I don't see what insight you hope to gain by doing that. (The people making big money as software developers in London work as independent consultants rather than employees, by the way, as it's more favorable from a tax point…

>You're just comparing a typical dev salary in London to an unusually high dev salary for NYC or SF.

If you make much less than that in SF or NYC, there is no point in living in such an expensive place. Go make that London salary working in a rural area of the US.

>Because you don't have enough money. There's no cap on medical bills. See for example the article I linked to regarding the $500,000 bill for dialysis. The person in question had insurance.

From your article: "A few days after the treatments began, an insurance case manager called the Valentines warning them that since Fresenius was out-of-network, they could be required to pay whatever the insurer didn’t cover. The manager added that there were no in-network dialysis clinics in Montana, according to Jessica’s handwritten notes from the conversation. (The insurance company disputes this, saying that its case manager told Jessica there were no in-network dialysis clinics in Missoula.)

Jessica repeatedly asked both the dialysis clinic staff and the insurer how much they could expect to be charged, but couldn’t get an answer.

Then the bills came."

So basically, insurance said they would not pay for the clinic this person selected and since they have zero agency they kept going and got the bill that they were told they were going to get. So sad. Did they actually pay the bill? Of course not. They took a credit hit.

>Holy crap, you really mean it. It happens all the time, as you can find out just by googling.

What was one individuals name who this happened to. Not a study. Not "we think it happens". What is the persons name?

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#265

Post by 11235853211 »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #257

If you have been fortunate in life, then you realize how much of your life is just luck of the draw and you start having more empathy for other people (hopefully) and you realize that we (America) are at a stage where we can afford to give basic social safety nets to people who need it the most. Hell, i think medical insurance is one of the biggest scams. I haven't gone to the doctors in years, yet i pay every month,…

And how "free" is it when we pay the taxes for it? Public healthcare is a term that is less likely to trigger red flags, pun intended, in the minds of conservatives who react to "free" or "socialized".

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#266

Post by fuzz4lyfe »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #263
fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech salaries in NYC and SF aren't 5 or 6 times higher than tech salaries in London. I've seen 75k USD salaries commonly in London and 400k+ is not unheard of in fang companies. >Erm, no. You will not likely meet the eligibility requirements for medicaid. That's just wishful thinking. If that's how the system worked, medical bankruptcies wouldn't happen. If I have money and insurance why do I need assistance? The d…

"Care to cite a time where that ever happened?" There's a documentary about the Mayo clinic on netflix. In it, a woman finally recieves a diagnosis of her mysterious and debilitating illness, of which she is pretty sure she would die from without diagnosis or treatment. She responds to initial treatment, which makes her hopeful the quality of life will finally approve. Then she no longer has money, and cannot have tr…

From what I'm told should be thousands of stories like this, why can't you find one where you can prove that the person died? It's all rumor and second hand stories. If someone in my family died due to someone refusing them medical care I'd be all over the media about it.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#267

Post by anthony1617 »

soVeryTired wrote: post #252
anthony1617 wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not like the government destroys that 27% when it spends it: the money is just redirected It's easier to think about these things in terms of labor than in terms of money - money is too abstract and it's easy to make logical errors. Imagine we have a 100% labor/service economy. Each time money changes hands, it means that that much "value" of labor has been exerted. In this sense, it is clear that the GDP is a…

> If each time money changes hands, the government takes 27%, that means that 27% of all labor exerted in the economy goes to the government, and is spent, permanently. But the labour goes towards a government program . If the program is absolutely worthless, then you're right: nothing of value was created and 27% of GDP was "spent". But if the service was just as valuable as what each worker would have done , then n…

> But the labour goes towards a government program.

I agree. I'm not saying government programs are useless. The person you replied to was simply saying that we only have $62,000 a year to spend on each person (and that's all of the resources in the entire economy) and it sounded to me like you were disagreeing and saying we had more than that.

> GDP measures value added to an economy.

I agree.

> If the price of a product drops, it adds less value.

By what definition of value? Are you just defining value as being equal to the price? In a utility-based sense, I think GDP does measure value added to the economy.

> We don't account for all clerical work that has been automated away in the GDP figures anymore because it's essentially free.

In some cases, the GDP might not change if the cost of goods has only gone down, sure, but GDP is a useful figure only relative to the cost of goods. This is how we compare the GDPs of different countries with different currencies.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#268

Post by blaser-waffle »

throw0101a wrote: post #172
boromisp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

> A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0] As a sub-class of that, see also the Prosperity Gospel: > Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)[A] is a controversial religious belief among some Protestant Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-be…

Sounds like Calvinism, but with bribery

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#269

Post by ShinTakuya »

esailija wrote: post #241
ShinTakuya wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. One is saying that it's possible to get out of poverty by making good choices. One is saying that it's impossible to be in poverty if you make good choices. Subtle but big difference. I disagree with both statements regardless, but there is a difference.

If "good choices are likely to lift you out of poverty" like OP claims, it logically follows that "you are unlikely to be poor if you make good choices". "There will be cases where it doesn't work" let's say that means 99%/1%. So the statements become "you would have 99% chance to be lifted out of poverty if you made good choices" and therefore "you have 1% chance of being poor if you make good choices". Whether you…

Sure but the statement the original commentor made wasn't that it was "unlikely" for you to be poor. He said "cannot".

What you mention in your comment is logical, but you moved the goalposts by using the word "unlikely". Can and cannot are vastly different words to likely and unlikely.

Put simply, one claims it's impossible to be poor if you do X. The other claims it's possible to be poor but you have a better chance of not being poor if you do X.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#270

Post by SolaceQuantum »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #266
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Care to cite a time where that ever happened?" There's a documentary about the Mayo clinic on netflix. In it, a woman finally recieves a diagnosis of her mysterious and debilitating illness, of which she is pretty sure she would die from without diagnosis or treatment. She responds to initial treatment, which makes her hopeful the quality of life will finally approve. Then she no longer has money, and cannot have tr…

From what I'm told should be thousands of stories like this, why can't you find one where you can prove that the person died? It's all rumor and second hand stories. If someone in my family died due to someone refusing them medical care I'd be all over the media about it.

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-devastating-process-of...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/24/us-healthcar...

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/10/15/study-45...

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/10367/care-without-coverage-too-...

https://www.bustle.com/p/these-20-stories-refute-the-idea-th...

??? There are studies that directly show that not having insurance is deadly.

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