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Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

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Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#131

Post by antonvs »

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #115
DannyB2 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poor understanding of physics are exemplified everywhere these days. Please allow me to quote former vice president Dan Quayle... https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dan_Quayle Mars is essentially in the same orbit. … Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that…

Oxygen can be harvested from the water, so in that sense he's not wrong. It seems like everyone wants to make every politician into an idiot.

The Mariner 4 probe showed that there were no canals on Mars, and no open water, by 1965. Quayle's knowledge on the subject was over two decades out of date at the time, and he was supposed to be in charge of the space initiative.

Quayle was not a smart man, even by the standards of politicians.

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#132

Post by ars »

b_tterc_p wrote: post #127
ars wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> help me wrap my head around that Think about when it's cold, and when it's cold and windy. Low pressure air is like "anti" wind, even less cold then no wind on earth.

So windchill is better interpreted as you will lose body heat as if it were this temperature without wind, but the actual temperature is still the same?

Pretty much. You lose body heat at a rate that depends on the temperature, air pressure, wind, humidity, and maybe more, for example the thermal emissivity of the objects around you (and of yourself).

If you set air pressure and humidity to "standard" values, and wind to zero, you can express the combination of other values as if they were a temperature, and call that windchill.

Of all the variables wind is most important, since the rest don't vary very much on earth. But air pressure does vary on Mars, and thermal emissivity varies in space.

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#133

Post by mytailorisrich »

DuskStar wrote: post #118
mytailorisrich wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you don't disagree but you keep disagreeing... I made a simple, yet fundamental statement. It's either true or false. There is no need to argue as if you had to out-do me in any way. Vacuum cannot have a temperature. This follows immediately from the definitions. This also means that the temperature of a vacuum's "walls", by which I'm guessing you mean particles in 'contact' with the vacuum, is just the tempe…

Vacuum cannot have a temperature, by the definition you are using. This makes it useless for certain tasks, such as determining the temperature an object within a vacuum will stabilize at over time. Thus, we use a different definition of temperature - because saying 'the temperature an object will stabilize at' every time instead of 'temperature' is really wordy.

> Vacuum cannot have a temperature

That's what I have been repeating, yes.

You seem to agree with me since you explain how 'temperature' may be assigned to vacuum as a fudge. This is a dangerous thing to do as equilibrium temperature does not depend on the vacuum itself but on any radiations present.

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#134

Post by jnurmine »

keiru wrote: post #130
jnurmine wrote: post #113

Robert Zubrin figured out a plausible plan to put a colony on Mars, yet the article fails to mention Zubrin and his Mars (Semi-)Direct plans. Colonizing Mars with a small team of experts is possible and within our technological and financial means to do so within a decade or so. However, the interesting question to me is not "can/how can Mars be colonized" but rather why would people move to Mars in the first place.…

>Colonizing Mars with a small team of experts Like the thousand people in Antartica right now? I just wouldn't call it colonization. >The lack of a plausible business model which could profit from having people live on Mars is the main gating factor. Right on the money here. Save for space research, what could you possibly do on Mars that you couldn't do more cheaply and comfortably in the crowded Earth? Resource ext…

About Antarctica and colonization, yes, I agree it is not colonization, but then again it cannot be, since no-one can live permanently in Antarctica because of the treaties (ATS).

"Oil rig workers" or not, if people on Mars would live there until their old age and death, I'd call them colonists. If they are there on a 3 year rotation, then nope, not colonists.

(As a side note Antarctica would be the perfect place to learn about eventual self-sufficient space colonies in an environment which is a softer version of Mars, without complexities around airlocks, suits, oxygen and the omnipresent sand etc.)

Earth has limited and dwindling resources but Mars is still completely untapped. Then again I have no idea what could be so rare or useful to actually drive the colonization of Mars. I mean maybe something like that exists already, but I just don't have an idea.

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#135

Post by Balgair »

Armisael16 wrote: post #124
Balgair wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get a self-sustaining Mars base working and to be able to leave the base and go back to Earth would require some real nifty engineering and automation. Stuff that would transfrom the Earth before lift-off. Think about it. To get off of Mars, you have two options really. Land the take-off rocket with the fuel in it or land it dry and then fuel it up. Landing a take-off rocket wet is super hard, especially on what a…

...or you don’t dig your fuel out of the ground but rather extract it from the atmosphere. Methalox rockets use CH4 + 2O2 -> 2H2O + CO2 The carbon and oxygen needed can be extracted from the atmosphere; the rocket only needs to bring the hydrogen - just 1/12th of required fuel mass.

I mean still, you gotta have robots handling fuel on an alien world and you still gotta land the rocket on something other than some random patch of dirt. Yeah, you can engineer things this way and that, make the rocket land on just about anything solid, reduce the fuel you land, make robots that are more reliable or expendable. Anyway you look at it the engineering challenges are massive. No matter what you're going to try, it affects Earth much more than than the way Tang and freeze-dried ice-cream did.

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#136

Post by lmilcin »

I will overlook bad physics in the article.

The title should really read "Humans Will Never Colonize Mars (using current technology, that is)"

Just imagine what happens if, finally, we are able to set off a bunch self replicating drones that will collect materials and fuel from across solar system and set it off to deliver raw materials in the direction of Mars. We might not even need Mars, we would just build platforms in space.

It is not really that inconceivable. The solution isn't outside the realm of physics. It really is just a bit of programming (not even AI) and kind of technological moonshot program (ie create a system of space factories that can gather and process raw materials up to the point where they can replicate themselves, creating also a bunch of drones that can scour solar system for raw materials and deliver variety of them to the factories).

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#137

Post by Armisael16 »

Balgair wrote: post #135
Armisael16 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or you don’t dig your fuel out of the ground but rather extract it from the atmosphere. Methalox rockets use CH4 + 2O2 -> 2H2O + CO2 The carbon and oxygen needed can be extracted from the atmosphere; the rocket only needs to bring the hydrogen - just 1/12th of required fuel mass.

I mean still, you gotta have robots handling fuel on an alien world and you still gotta land the rocket on something other than some random patch of dirt. Yeah, you can engineer things this way and that, make the rocket land on just about anything solid, reduce the fuel you land, make robots that are more reliable or expendable. Anyway you look at it the engineering challenges are massive . No matter what you're goin…

What part of the process I discussed requires a robot?

Re: Humans Will Never Colonize Mars

#138

Post by Balgair »

Armisael16 wrote: post #137
Balgair wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean still, you gotta have robots handling fuel on an alien world and you still gotta land the rocket on something other than some random patch of dirt. Yeah, you can engineer things this way and that, make the rocket land on just about anything solid, reduce the fuel you land, make robots that are more reliable or expendable. Anyway you look at it the engineering challenges are massive . No matter what you're goin…

What part of the process I discussed requires a robot?

On what pad are you going to land the rocket? You've got to at least level the ground and clear it of debris before a landing. That's gonna take some big construction equipment, even in 0.4G, likely not with a human anywhere near. Likely, you'll need to pour something akin to concrete for the pad, which is not an easy job for a suited up human without any real rad protection. Robots are going to be a major part of any Mars mission as Mars is not a great place to be outside and doing skilled labor.
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