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Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

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Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#51

Post by mdorazio »

jdietrich wrote: post #31
zazaraka wrote: post #14

The lack of vision at DSLR companies is mind boggling. Why can't I do light editing and post to Instagram directly from the camera? Why can't download the photos directly to a phone? Why can't I charge from a micro-USB/USB-C cable? I get it that pros don't need these features, but how hard are they to implement? The camera is already $1000+ dollars, how much more could adding a touch screen, a SIM card and a beefier…

It's a huge investment in software and hardware for an almost non-existent user base. Most current DSLRs already have Wifi or a Wifi option; those that don't can be fitted with a Wifi SD card. It turns out that hardly anyone actually uses that feature, because Wifi transfer rates are generally a more problematic bottleneck than the inconvenience of pulling the SD card and putting it into a card reader. The main users…

This is akin to people who said "why would you want computer-like features on your phone? Everyone who's willing to pay $500+ for a phone already has a laptop!"

A very large number of would-be content creators (not just Instagram, either - YouTubers also) want the higher image quality, dynamic range, optical zoom, interchangeable lenses, etc. of a full-body camera, but don't want to deal with the clunky interfaces and multi-step processes just to get your images/videos to a format, style, and place you want them. Yes, that's a subset of the market, but it's probably a bigger potential userbase than traditional "pure" photographers.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#52

Post by throwanem »

BeetleB wrote: post #32
zazaraka wrote: post #14

The lack of vision at DSLR companies is mind boggling. Why can't I do light editing and post to Instagram directly from the camera? Why can't download the photos directly to a phone? Why can't I charge from a micro-USB/USB-C cable? I get it that pros don't need these features, but how hard are they to implement? The camera is already $1000+ dollars, how much more could adding a touch screen, a SIM card and a beefier…

Completely agree. Why don't they provide APIs so people can customize the behavior and processing? Take a look at this: https://ai.googleblog.com/2017/04/experimental-nighttime-pho... Using a relatively crappy camera on a phone, they were able to get great results merely because they can program it. As a simple example: I want to reduce high ISO noise by taking N photos and taking the median. This is an established t…

You can't do that because no one is building general-purpose computers into DSLRs - or, for that matter, MILCs - because no one cares about that use case, and the resources wasted on making it possible are better spent on supporting the things that photographers expect cameras to do.

That said, you probably could do something like that with sufficient effort invested in CHDK or Magic Lantern or whatever the current homebrew Canon firmware project is lately. I'll be fascinated to see what you come up with!

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#53

Post by ilikehurdles »

kenhwang wrote: post #41
dheera wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live is a world with a distorted notion of success. About 1/2 the people I know who take photography seriously use Canon cameras. I'm also a happy Canon customer. How is this a sinking ship?

Can the people who take photography seriously sustain Canon's camera business on their own? That's the main problem.

Why should a bubble of casual-photographers exiting the DSLR market be enough to sink Canon? The serious photographer market should be enough to sustain the business (it's not like these things are sold at a loss), but investors in pursuit of infinite growth might not like that.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#54

Post by xster »

zazaraka wrote: post #14

The lack of vision at DSLR companies is mind boggling. Why can't I do light editing and post to Instagram directly from the camera? Why can't download the photos directly to a phone? Why can't I charge from a micro-USB/USB-C cable? I get it that pros don't need these features, but how hard are they to implement? The camera is already $1000+ dollars, how much more could adding a touch screen, a SIM card and a beefier…

Another department I doubt these traditional Japanese companies can catch up on is computational photography. I can take 5s handheld night time photos with adequate quality on a bunch of phones these days. There's still no way of getting anything useful out of DSLRs longer than 1/15s without tripods.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#55

Post by jdietrich »

zazaraka wrote: post #39
jdietrich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a huge investment in software and hardware for an almost non-existent user base. Most current DSLRs already have Wifi or a Wifi option; those that don't can be fitted with a Wifi SD card. It turns out that hardly anyone actually uses that feature, because Wifi transfer rates are generally a more problematic bottleneck than the inconvenience of pulling the SD card and putting it into a card reader. The main users…

> for an almost non-existent user base > the kind of person who spends >$1000 on a bulky and complex camera I'm talking about opening up a new market - instagrammers, who already spend money on ring lights, tripods for their phones, but who don't want to learn all the intricacies of using a DSLR camera + adapters + laptop. The DSLR camera makers focus on a constant/shrinking market of pros, while totally ignoring a b…

>I'm talking about opening up a new market - instagrammers, who already spend money on ring lights, tripods for their phones, but who don't want to learn all the intricacies of using a DSLR camera + adapters + laptop.

The people who don't want to learn the intricacies of photography just use their phone. Unless you learn those intricacies, your phone will reliably take better images, because Apple have spent stupid amounts of R&D money on optimising their image post-processing.

The better lens and sensor on a DSLR is essentially irrelevant to Instagrammers, because the limitations of phone camera hardware are barely visible on a 6" phone screen in typical shooting scenarios. The point of using a DSLR-type camera is to gain more control over the imagemaking process. Unless you actually learn something about photography, that extra control is just an array of footguns. Faffing about with cables and cards is utterly trivial compared to pretty much any aspect of serious photography.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#56

Post by mdorazio »

hestipod wrote: post #19

I am probably a minority but I hate live viewfinders as looking at a tiny screen, despite the benefits live exposure composition offers, gives me eyestrain and headaches. I much prefer an optical viewfinder so for this reason I really hope the mirrorless hype isn't going to displace DLSRs entirely and Canon keeps making them. Bit of a moot point for me at present as all I have is an old Lumix LX1 with manual settings…

Personally, I have the exact opposite opinion on optical viewfinders. Optical is eyestraining, non-ergonomic, physically limiting (can't use an optical viewfinder when you're shooting at foot or waist level without contorting yourself into weird positions), and modern shooting modes often require a lot more setup and selection than is comfortable to use without a full-size screen and looking at the controls you're hitting.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#57

Post by mktmkr »

hestipod wrote: post #19

I am probably a minority but I hate live viewfinders as looking at a tiny screen, despite the benefits live exposure composition offers, gives me eyestrain and headaches. I much prefer an optical viewfinder so for this reason I really hope the mirrorless hype isn't going to displace DLSRs entirely and Canon keeps making them. Bit of a moot point for me at present as all I have is an old Lumix LX1 with manual settings…

You don't have to use the tiny screen. Mirrorless cameras generally come with a large display. I almost always use the display on my Olympus because it's easier and I don't look like I have a machine on my face (this was also an important advantage of old view cameras with the focus screen on top, like the Hasselblad 500). If you want, you can attach a much larger screen to your mirrorless camera, they just use HDMI output so get as big a display as you want.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#58

Post by zazaraka »

throwanem wrote: post #46
zazaraka wrote: post #14

The lack of vision at DSLR companies is mind boggling. Why can't I do light editing and post to Instagram directly from the camera? Why can't download the photos directly to a phone? Why can't I charge from a micro-USB/USB-C cable? I get it that pros don't need these features, but how hard are they to implement? The camera is already $1000+ dollars, how much more could adding a touch screen, a SIM card and a beefier…

"Why can't I do light editing and post to Instagram directly from the camera?" Because the computing resource, battery power, and physical volume spent on hardware Instagram integration detracts from what can be devoted to making the camera as good as possible at being a camera . You'd have to cram a smartphone in there, and everyone already has smartphones anyway. And you can do light editing in-camera, if you want.…

By catering to influencers in SOME models, they would be in a much better financial shape to continue R&D for the pros.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#59

Post by throwanem »

mdorazio wrote: post #51
jdietrich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a huge investment in software and hardware for an almost non-existent user base. Most current DSLRs already have Wifi or a Wifi option; those that don't can be fitted with a Wifi SD card. It turns out that hardly anyone actually uses that feature, because Wifi transfer rates are generally a more problematic bottleneck than the inconvenience of pulling the SD card and putting it into a card reader. The main users…

This is akin to people who said "why would you want computer-like features on your phone? Everyone who's willing to pay $500+ for a phone already has a laptop!" A very large number of would-be content creators (not just Instagram, either - YouTubers also) want the higher image quality, dynamic range, optical zoom, interchangeable lenses, etc. of a full-body camera, but don't want to deal with the clunky interfaces an…

Most of the YouTubers to whom I subscribe, who produce video and mention or show the equipment they use to do so, turn out to be using Canon DSLRs. If you're already doing video production, the single additional step of pulling an SD card out of a camera and sticking it in a computer to pull your raw takes off isn't a high bar to clear.

With regard to Instagram, sure, you have a point. A DSLR-to-social-media flow doesn't have anything like the same ease of use as one involving a phone camera. But I'm willing to argue that the production values involved in being a serious Instagram influencer, and the degree of artifice that's necessary to that sector's pretense of an artlessly beautiful life, means the bar for switching to an interchangeable-lens system isn't as high as you think it is. Indeed, I'd be astonished if a significant segment of that crowd has not already done so.

Re: Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge

#60

Post by sib »

dheera wrote: post #36
UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #18

I used to work for Canon in a different division. It was an interesting company to work for, fantastic human-perks i.e. 2 weeks paid time off (not counted against vacation) if you got married, 1 week of paid time off if you moved. (not counted against vacation) You got your birthday off (paid and not counted against vacation). Upper (middle?) management were all dinosaurs, and stuck in their ways. The entire 'digital…

We live is a world with a distorted notion of success. About 1/2 the people I know who take photography seriously use Canon cameras. I'm also a happy Canon customer. How is this a sinking ship?

"Canon rush to reassure investors as camera profits plunge 64%" is the title of the article.

Profits dropping 64% is a pretty good indication that things aren't going great.

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