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IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

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Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#411
post #408
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* There's no need for a tradeoff. We could just have a method of payment that gives less of your information to merchants. * You can't 'opt-in' to 'various escrow or risk-absorbing systems'. That's because these services simply do not exist at this moment at Bitcoin-land. They may well never exist or be supported by merchants. You're comparing a non-existing theoretical model against real-world working stuff. * Unfor…

A bit late, but for your first point, what methods do you propose? The existing ones aren't good enough, with every merchant wanting to know as much as they can about you. In person of course cash works fine, and long ago I've mailed money orders, but neither is feasible for online. I'm glad PayPal exists and use it for some things, but of course PayPal knows all about me (I've even used their credit system before) a…

Well, there aren't many sellers which try to directly sue their allegedly cheating customers. It's almost never worth it. Platforms might be able to make that work, but they don't do that either. IMHO, the desire for buyer info is not motivated by trying to hedge against customer fraud but on trying to monetize everything - selling data, advertising to existing customers since they're more likely to buy v2 of what they bought, etc.

Giving less of my info to sellers is therefore less a technological characteristic of a payment system, and more a choice by the system's creators. There's no technological hurdle to even having a credit card which gives a bit less info. Theoretically, the credit company only needs to see my expense, current available funds and some transaction/merchant identifier, not exactly what I spend it on or even who I am.

I'm hoping some of the new NFC-based payment systems will make privacy a differentiator. They'll need something if they want to get into the market with such established players. We'll see what Apple comes along with. I've been slagging them quite a bit, but they do try to make privacy a selling point. Perhaps here too?

As for the second issue, I am sure that a form of chargeback could be implemented on top of crypto. Your first link just shows one way to do it - but doesn't link to any implementations of this. The second link explicitly mentions 'no chargebacks', so again, it's theoretical in the sense of not existing.

The hurdle here is again not technological, but the apparently inability of the crypto community to think that people might want this behaviour. Sometimes even sellers. Where I live, allowing return of unused goods before a certain period of time has passed is mandated by law. Payment methods which does not have chargeback may actually complicate seller's business in this case, since than they have to be even more careful against internal fraud and pay an extra fee for the return as if it were a new transfer (if not in cash).

Thirdly, fraud and ransomware are getting worse and worse. I'm sure eventually there'll a crackdown. I just can't predict how, where and when. But crypto would be a very convenient target politically; this doesn't yet require targeting any large stakeholder.

Alas, the one thing the crypto community is right about, is that many economists are just waiting to be able to implement negative interest rates - but I doubt crypto would be able to change anything there.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not the case. For foreign currency there is a low-value transaction exemption. If you go on vacation in Italy you don’t have to report forex income/loss for every meal. But if you came back with an Italian sports car, you would. Not so with bitcoin, which the IRS taxes every transaction, no matter how small.

I think the reasonable justification for the low-value exemption for foreign currencies is that it's a) a common consumer use case, and b) hard to account for. Neither applies to Bitcoin. Not only is Bitcoin a failure for typical consumer use [1], but its digital-from-the-start nature means that the accounting burden is much lower. [1] https://avc.com/2017/08/store-of-value-vs-payment-system/

Lightning transactions are both low friction enough for consumers to use, and inherently ephemeral.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is that meat doesn't come in dollars; it comes in kilograms. If you are paid in meat, you get something like 100 kg of pre-formed frozen ground beef patties. That doesn't have a dollar value unless you can find a buyer for it. Which is pretty easy to do if it's a commodity. So let's try a more broken example. You get paid in sandstone triangular prisms machined to be 31 mm on the two longer sides, 1…

If there is no inherent conversion rate then how does the government define how much you owe?

That's just it. They require you to say how much it was worth when you got it.

But they really have no way to know whether you are lying. As a result, people lie about the value of traded goods, or art, or land properties, or unlisted financial instruments, to reduce the amount of income tax they purportedly owe. This is a major tax-evasion (not avoiding) and/or money-laundering loophole employed by the rich, especially when employing art and real estate, which may be justifiably non-comparable to similar goods due to uniqueness.

A law-obeying person would liquidate enough of the subjective-value goods to pay income tax at the maximum withholding rate at the time of receipt, and send that amount to the IRS at the end of the quarter, then claiming a refund from that amount with their return at the end of the year.

A practical, law-breaking person would just keep their mouth shut about it, and allow the IRS to claim it was income that had value, and only pay taxes on it (or dispute the amount demanded) if the IRS actually demanded an amount.

The enforcement on Bitcoin-holders is not to raise revenue in any meaningful sense. It is to discourage use of cryptocurrencies as a means of tax evasion--probably because middle-class people could make use of it. With respect to the means employed by the rich to evade and avoid taxes, an equivalent effort would likely return 1000 times greater rewards.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It falls in line with similar to "don't talk to the police". Just keep quiet. This applies to everything when dealing with any government agency. The government is not your friend.

People say stuff to police that's later used against them in court all the time, so I agree keeping quiet is generally good advice. You should still use your common sense though. I have a friend who took this advice way too literally when we were 18. I was in the car when he got pulled over for speeding once, and he refused to say a single word to the officer. He handed over his license, registration and proof of ins…

> in Ohio launching bottle rockets is an M-1 misdemeanor carrying up to a six month prison sentence

I wonder if we're thinking of the same kind of bottle rocket... like a plastic soda bottle propelled into the air by water and/or compressed air? Why is the penalty so severe?

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reasonable justification for the low-value exemption for foreign currencies is that it's a) a common consumer use case, and b) hard to account for. Neither applies to Bitcoin. Not only is Bitcoin a failure for typical consumer use [1], but its digital-from-the-start nature means that the accounting burden is much lower. [1] https://avc.com/2017/08/store-of-value-vs-payment-system/

Lightning transactions are both low friction enough for consumers to use, and inherently ephemeral.

If somebody has designed a digital system to throw away data instead of recording it, that doesn't excuse them from recording it when needed for tax reasons.

And I understand that in cryptocurrency land there's always a future thing that people will use. Wake me when that happens, as 10 years in I've stopped holding my breath. Especially since, as I said upthread, other technologies in the same period have found widespread adoption.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say stuff to police that's later used against them in court all the time, so I agree keeping quiet is generally good advice. You should still use your common sense though. I have a friend who took this advice way too literally when we were 18. I was in the car when he got pulled over for speeding once, and he refused to say a single word to the officer. He handed over his license, registration and proof of ins…

> in Ohio launching bottle rockets is an M-1 misdemeanor carrying up to a six month prison sentence I wonder if we're thinking of the same kind of bottle rocket... like a plastic soda bottle propelled into the air by water and/or compressed air? Why is the penalty so severe?

I've played with those too, but the bottle rockets I got in trouble for were small fireworks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyrocket
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