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The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

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Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#101
post #57

The electric car industry hasn't remotely boomed. Electric cars are still deeply strangled by two key factors: industry inertia and the cost/supply of lithium batteries. Once those two factors are solved (and a build-up of lithium mines is key to that) electric cars will go from being a niche within a niche to utterly dominating the market very, very quickly. Within the next decade we might see companies like Hyundai…

> In my opinion Tesla needs to prepare to be in the budget space. They need to partner with an external manufacturer to sell a product with normal door handles that competes with Hyundai and Toyota. Because once the cost of batteries falls, I predict a substantial slice of their market will simply disappear to the economy manufacturers. I suspect that many people who love Telsa really just love the idea of electric v…

This feels a little unwarranted (almost rude?) and without considering the differences. So let's do some proper analysis of your statement and comparison of the car market and the phone market.

1. Smartphones provided a new type of utility and a very significant leap of value to the user (I bet most people do other stuff than calling for the vast majority of time spent with their phones, which was not the case with feature phones or generally before the iPhone). Electric cars provide a minor difference in new utility and probably also value. It's more a difference in the means rather than a difference of the end result.

2. Phones are significantly cheaper than cars. Thus, there's a much larger market unit wise than cars (there are probably a similar number of units in use at any point in time, but cars don't get thrown away after 2 years...)

Apple did something similar which is pretty well known in disruption theory. They moved up the market and became a truly premium phone company. That's also why they have a quite small portion of the market unit wise (less than 10%?). They are actually not dominating the industry, they are a niche player (but very successful at that, as seen profit wise, especially compared to their competitors). They are also really good at being a premium phone maker, and have leveraged a lot of other core competencies (look up on Wikipedia for more about that concept) well such as their software competencies and their ecosystem thinking (locking their users into their ecosystem and providing most key parts of that ecosystem).

So what about Tesla? They are hardly as good as Apple premium wise. The market for premium is also a lot smaller for cars, especially if you move upwards from where Tesla is right now. It's also very hard to make a profit in that market, and most make a profit by combining a mass scale operation (more or less all premium car brands are owned by one of the big car companies). So is (more) premium a great direction for Tesla? I doubt it. It will hinder economies of scale which have proven difficult to not have.

So, unless Tesla partner up, don't believe electric car engines/drive trains will become commoditized in the near future and/or have some significant premium/lock-in/ecosystem stuff up their sleeve, it looks like budget is the way to go... They might stay in the premium but not luxury segment, but it's cut throat with lots of competition. To me that sounds like a lost opportunity and waste of some significant base innovation.

And... I guess above is why Tesla seems to desperately try to find additional competitive barriers; self driving, fully automated manufacturing, quick charge network, etc. But, they are long shots so far. It's difficult to innovate one area, very much so multiple areas simultaneously.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or go solar and charge anywhere you have daylight: - Experimental Toyota Prius: https://newatlas.com/toyota-prius-solar-roof/60461/ - Sono Sion: https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/ - Lightyear One: https://lightyear.one/ Even if you're only getting a small amount of range from solar in Winter, that's still less charging that has to come from the grid.

A solar roof providing 3.8 mi of battery-only range per day isn’t going to replace the need for a charging network. A 1.9 mile commute is what, 4 minutes drive?

I didn't say it would replace the need for a changing network.

I do say that in Summer you could get an average of 50 kilometres per day from solar in the Lightyear One (if you live somewhere sunny). That would cover the daily commute of many people. You could go months without plugging in.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#103

The electric car industry hasn't remotely boomed. Electric cars are still deeply strangled by two key factors: industry inertia and the cost/supply of lithium batteries. Once those two factors are solved (and a build-up of lithium mines is key to that) electric cars will go from being a niche within a niche to utterly dominating the market very, very quickly. Within the next decade we might see companies like Hyundai…

I think a robust charging network is a third dependency. You need to have a garage, or commute to someplace with or near a charger. Down here in San Diego (East County), I don't see a lot of the latter.

You need a garage, and a circuit with 60A capacity. Most houses built today have 200A total capacity, older homes are 100A. At some point the electric grid will need updated.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It still have a 35x potential growth, so it can "boom" again, but the EV industry now is huge One of the hyped upsides of electric cars is decreased maintenance costs leading to a decrease in per-km capital costs of driving. If this is true, unless induced demand from this causes people to drive more, EVs effectively will shrink the total car industry pie, leaving something less than 35x potential growth.

Cynical view: maintenance burden will stay roughly similar, because fault rate is not ultimately driven by technology, but by how much the market is willing to bear. In other words, companies under competitive pressure will cheap out on materials and cut corners in the manufacturing process, making their cars as faulty as they can get away with, and unless something changes structurally in the market (e.g. death of u…

I think that a pretty good argument against this view is to note that the fault rate has been steadily decreasing over time. This suggests that minimizing the fault rate is a strong competitive advantage, and the limiting factor is therefore not what the market will bear, but what is technically possible right now (without sacrificing other things that matter for competitiveness). Should a new technology arise that will increase reliability and durability, it will be rapidly adopted and push fault rates down across the board.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#105

The electric car industry hasn't remotely boomed. Electric cars are still deeply strangled by two key factors: industry inertia and the cost/supply of lithium batteries. Once those two factors are solved (and a build-up of lithium mines is key to that) electric cars will go from being a niche within a niche to utterly dominating the market very, very quickly. Within the next decade we might see companies like Hyundai…

[deleted]

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the decreased maintenance costs will actually happen initially. Big design changes like the shift to EV require lots of new parts to be designed, and every new part has a non-zero chance of a reliability issue. 5 years time, we'll be talking about the motor mount point which rusts through and causes a chunk of EV cars to fail. A 2nd effect is as cars get more computerized, 3rd party repairs will get muc…

I realize it's only one anecdotal datapoint, but my 4.5 year old electric LEAF has literally never the dealership or any other mechanic since delivery and all I've had to do is charge it, add washer fluid, plug a tire leak, and change the wiper blades once. I think that a fleet of 10 electric cars owned over 10 years is likely to cost less than half in maintenance costs than a comparable fleet of 10 ICE cars over 10…

I disagree. The ICE car after 10 years will have seen less maintenance costs after 10 years. The electric car will have had the battery replaced, which will eat up all the cost of oil changes.

Of course batteries are coming down in price. Time will tell how this plays out.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a robust charging network is a third dependency. You need to have a garage, or commute to someplace with or near a charger. Down here in San Diego (East County), I don't see a lot of the latter.

You need a garage, and a circuit with 60A capacity. Most houses built today have 200A total capacity, older homes are 100A. At some point the electric grid will need updated.

You need 60amps for high speed charging, but can't you plug into a 15 amp outlet and charge overnight?

You are correct that the grid will need updating - all those houses using 15 amps more add up.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#108
It seems like people often forget how applicable EVs are to in city heavy commercial vehicles such as garbage truck, buses, service vehicles

The high torque nature and predicable nature (at least in the case of garbage trucks and buses) make them ideal candidates for EV. Arguably much more viable use case (at least initially) than household vehicles.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#109

The electric car industry hasn't remotely boomed. Electric cars are still deeply strangled by two key factors: industry inertia and the cost/supply of lithium batteries. Once those two factors are solved (and a build-up of lithium mines is key to that) electric cars will go from being a niche within a niche to utterly dominating the market very, very quickly. Within the next decade we might see companies like Hyundai…

What about the constraints of what the power grid can support in terms of mass EV rollout?

What about the charging infrastructure itself?

The first point in particular doesn't seem to get the attention it deserves.

As an example some places (try to) ban crypto mining because the extra power load effectively makes power more expensive for everyone.

The residential grid is built with a particular established demand for power. EV charging would significantly change that in many places.

Re: The Lithium Mine Buildup Is Outpacing the Electric-Car Boom

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volkswagen will likely soon overtake Hyundai with their MEB platform cars. The initial MEB models are: - Volkswagen ID.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8cHHNPRg-c - SEAT el-Born: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI7WFtwc8g - Skoda Vision iV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1g9xl6W_E - Audi Q4 e-tron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiwevzHsCbU Hyundai may also have some battery problems to deal with at the momen…

Volkswagen might do well in electrics, but that remains to be seen. Personally it'll take a while for the dieselgate stench to leave that company, at least for me. (I don't care so much about the actual emissions, for me it showed the contempt they have for their customers.)

Volkswagen are doing well in electric motorsport:

- The Volkswagen ID.R set the fastest Goodwood hill time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8il5ohB8FYk

- The VW ID.R set the fastest Pikes Peak time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnH15dejp0s

- The VW ID.R set the fastest electric time (second fastest overall time) at the Nürburgring-Nordschleife: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRCiGABQupA

- Audi is already in Formula E: https://www.audi.com/en/experience-audi/audi-sport/audi-raci...

- And Porsche is joining Formula E next season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUrkD7WTs0w

Which they'll use to advertise the Porsche Taycan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohHEdaRhF1k

Volkswagen is investing a lot in electrics. They're doing it to clean up their image from the diesel emissions scandal, to meet the new emissions standards being set by the EU and others, and to avoid being locked out of markets which have already set timetables for banning ICE cars (like Norway and the city of Paris).

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