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The Problem of Mindfulness

aeon.co

131–140 of 161 posts

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#131
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one word: selflessness. Acts of a truly enlightened or awakened being will be selfless. He has already realized the futility of doing actions for sense gratification. Please note the word realized. Intellectual understanding is different from realization. With the former your subconscious mind continues to propell you to strive for fulfilling selfish desires while realization will clean the slate. When we study th…

That’s still not answering my question. How do I tell the difference between myself achieving enlightenment and merely having an opinion that I have achieved it? Things you describe are perceived subjectively, so they can also be victims to my brain deluding myself.

> How do I tell the difference between myself achieving enlightenment and merely having an opinion that I have achieved it?

How would you describe a state of mind in which you remain thoughtless as long as you want? Thoughts will only arrive in your conscious mind when you summon them and you can hold a thought as long as you want. You remain perfectly peaceful, tranquil without blabbering and urges of the mind without exerting as in meditation. Meditation is no longer an act but a state of your mind.

When your mind is perfectly under control without effort, you have become awakened (or enlightened), because now you truly possess a free will in the truest sense of the word. Earlier when your mind was in control, your innate tendencies were driving your actions, based on external stimuli. Anger, greed, lust, envy, fear and other negative emotions thrive in such a state of mind naturally and one has to exert to check them.

I'd urge you to try concentrative meditation, wherein one tries to hold a thought (could be visualizing a form, or listening to a sound ETC) and see the power of conditioned mind. Observe how long you can hold it. For instance, if you're visualizing a form, you may discover that within matter of few seconds it starts fading, dancing or completely gone. Similarly If you are meditating on sound, you will find that within few seconds your mind has distracted and you have to exert to retain your focus. The mind is not in your control and such a conditioned mind can form opinions and dilute you. But an enlightened mind, perfectly in control cannot have delusion and ever lives in present moment. Opinions and judgement are tools of a conditioned mind, ever fearful and constantly striving to ensure survival of the body.

That said, I'm not yet an enlightened being; I'm striving for it by walking path of meditation, kindness and chanting [0]. I do have experiences and glimses confirming most of what I've written, but I have not attained the final state yet. If you're truly curious and want to read, learn and practice more about this, I'd encourage you to read Om Swami's books. The one on meditation [1] takes you through the journey of a meditator with states and stages of mind and awareness that you'll find intriguing and hopefully interesting to pursue. Simple yet precise methods and practices have been given along with a method to measure one's progress.

0: I use Black Lotus app for logging and measuring my meditation and chanting sessions as well as random acts of kindness (RAKs) (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rt.pinpric...) - inspired by same author 1: https://www.amazon.com/Million-Thoughts-Meditation-Himalayan...

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#132
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your judgemental reaction against the intended substance in my comment just proves the point. The comment I offered was an illustration that I found helpful in clarifying the Buddhist concept of non-self. In my book omniscience need not be some kind of superpower, even a sincere effort to comprehend and understand clearly, without heavy overlays, is on track. Learning to pierce those overlays with patience ha…

> I think your judgemental reaction against the intended substance in my comment just proves the point. It doesn't. Drawn to its logical conclusion, your philosophy can't prove anything. When challenged, you relegate to semantic games, diluting your terms and statements to the point where they can mean anything and nothing. You accuse me of being judgemental instead of actually defending your philosophy. Well, so wha…

Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind. I wasn’t presenting a philosophy.

I just spent a fair amount of time trying to unpack the Buddhist concept of non-self, and offered up something that I found to be a novel way of elucidating the significance and usefulness of non-self, and shone a light, for me at least, on the habits of mind which obscure the understanding.

In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term. In a practical context, a literal adherence is not necessary to derive a meaningful understanding and experience.

For example, a child may say “I’m no good at maths”. Yet you spend some time helping them patiently, and in time they gain some confidence, maybe even some mastery, and that particular once firmly-held notion is proven to be false, an obscuration. The first level being the thought “I’m no good at maths” and the second level being the firmly-held belief that it’s an immutable fact.

Beyond all this, the identity you ascribe to me (“kook”, “my philosophy”) is all your creation.

I appreciate now that you don’t like Buddhism. That doesn’t automatically mean that I came here to argue with you about that.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#133
post #122

As a Christian I find other christian friends split on the topic of mindfulness. Some embrace mindfulness and some think it should be avoided. I am in the latter camp. I imagine the reason why is the spiritual nature of mindfulness which is highlighted by all the comments here. Most days I use the Lord Jesus’s prayer to reflect and pray about the day before/ahead. It’s an important part of my life and well-being. I’m…

(Former Christian my some standard here) Some would argue that meditation, mindfulness and prayer are not necessarily different. Prayer - from the angle of communion with God - can be a two way street. You speak, you listen. With mindfulness and many other meditations, you listen a lot. You can call what you're listening to yourself. Or God. Or Oneness. Or The Universe. Whatever it is, it helps you turn the lens of y…

Thanks. I was just chatting to my wife about your response and she was recollecting what some call centering prayer. There seems to be some comparison. I guess I do meditate and am mindful. There may just may be some cultural baggage with those words in Christendom.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in that boat too. Before meditation, I used to practice self-hypnosis and at the beginning, I thought they were similar. But self hypnosis helps you change your thoughts, when meditation is simply acknowledgement of thoughts, which feels useless to me. In a sense, meditation seems very shallow, it's the very first step. Then come the techniques of self-hypnosis which lead to change and the real self-help. I don't…

>when meditation is simply acknowledgement of thoughts, which feels useless to me. I would say you clearly have not meditated enough :)

Thank you, who doesn't like a condescendent comment...

I would reply you have no idea how much you're leaving on the table by meditating instead of using auto-hypnosis.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#136
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the mindfulness approach is that it only leads you knee-deep. Enough to enjoy the waves and the joy of water, but too little to start swimming. For example, I can still see you are not accepting your past self for what it is ("I thought I was insightful and deep before") or how the world is ("would be a FAR better place"). You are on a path towards awakening. Some of us have come to understand that t…

Now that Buddhists like you are coming in here and telling us to be more Buddhist and read and think Buddhist things, I think it's important to stress that anyone interested in mindfulness doesn't need to become a Buddhist. In fact there is a clinical application of mindfulness which is called cognitive behavioral therapy, it is proven through research to have great benefits for a lot of people, it is secular, and un…

Mindfulness is practiced in any religion. Though, most churches will for political reasons push back anything bringing in too much mysticism and spirituality. That's why the content of many religious books outside of institutional restrictions are more or less interchangeable.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#137
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think your judgemental reaction against the intended substance in my comment just proves the point. It doesn't. Drawn to its logical conclusion, your philosophy can't prove anything. When challenged, you relegate to semantic games, diluting your terms and statements to the point where they can mean anything and nothing. You accuse me of being judgemental instead of actually defending your philosophy. Well, so wha…

Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind. I wasn’t presenting a philosophy. I just spent a fair amount of time trying to unpack the Buddhist concept of non-self, and offered up something that I found to be a novel way of elucidating the significance and usefulness of non-self, and shone a light, for me at least, on the habits of mind which obscure the understanding. In the context of the quote, omniscience is…

> Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind.

Of course not, you're a mindful person!

> I wasn’t presenting a philosophy.

You made statements of philosophical relevance, which were answered in kind.

> In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term.

Sure, in the context of psychobabble, any word can mean anything you want. If you asked Deepak Chopra about quantum mechanics, you would get a "wealth" of meaningless drivel that may nevertheless sound highly profound to the uninitiated.

> For example, a child may say “I’m no good at maths”. Yet you spend some time helping them patiently, and in time they gain some confidence, maybe even some mastery, and that particular once firmly-held notion is proven to be false, an obscuration.

A child that says they're "no good at math" is probably telling the truth. Let's suppose the child really wasn't good at math. They haven't had any practice, why should they be good at math? After all this practice, they may become good at math, but the child wasn't good at maths before. Their earlier self-assessment hasn't been proven false. It was true at the time and forever will have been true.

> The first level being the thought “I’m no good at maths” and the second level being the firmly-held belief that it’s an immutable fact.

The statement "I'm no good at maths" doesn't actually imply such a "firmly-held belief". A statement like "I'm no good at math and I never will be no matter what I do" would. Perhaps a child might make such a statement. They're not really in the position to know, but the possibility exists that it is a more or less immutable fact. Dyscalculia is a thing, you know.

See, if I didn't make this distinction, you might get away with having said something that sounds profound. It really isn't!

> Beyond all this, the identity you ascribe to me (“kook”, “my philosophy”) is all your creation.

I never called you a kook and I don't think you're kook. I think you're an ordinary person that, like many people, found some appeal in mindfulness. I'm not saying that mindfulness doesn't work or that subjectively it doesn't have benefits that outweigh the drawbacks.

However, the foundational teachings behind it are ultimately meaningless. They sound profound, but if you nail them down and try to get them to actually say something with a concrete meaning, they tend to fall apart. They are left intentionally vague to let your preconceived notions fill in the gaps. It's very persuasive.

In any event, you can't entirely divorce the foundation from the practice. That's the point of the article.

> I appreciate now that you don’t like Buddhism.

It's not that I don't like it. I'd like to like it! Nevertheless, I find it misguided. It deserves scrutiny like any belief system.

> That doesn’t automatically mean that I came here to argue with you about that.

I don't expect you to. Nevertheless, I appeal to maintain your critical thinking. Don't do too much non-thinking. You can do that when you're dead.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#138
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind. I wasn’t presenting a philosophy. I just spent a fair amount of time trying to unpack the Buddhist concept of non-self, and offered up something that I found to be a novel way of elucidating the significance and usefulness of non-self, and shone a light, for me at least, on the habits of mind which obscure the understanding. In the context of the quote, omniscience is…

> Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind. Of course not, you're a mindful person! > I wasn’t presenting a philosophy. You made statements of philosophical relevance, which were answered in kind. > In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term. Sure, in the context of psychobabble, any word can mean anything you want. If you asked Deepak Chopra about quantum mechanics, you would get a "wealth" of…

Sorry to disappoint you again, but like you, I also take issue with “McMindfulness”.

Another commenter (one of the first) made the point that “mindfulness” is an inaccurate translation of the Pali “sati”, which in the original context doesn’t mean much more than “remembering to be aware of the objects that your mind is attending to” - those objects being specific and often elaborate mental and emotional faculties. Sati is no system in itself.

Anyway, I only ever set out here to share a single illustrative example of “anatta” or non-self.

Have fun there.

Re: The Problem of Mindfulness

#140
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, I don’t have a philosophical axe to grind. Of course not, you're a mindful person! > I wasn’t presenting a philosophy. You made statements of philosophical relevance, which were answered in kind. > In the context of the quote, omniscience is a valid term. Sure, in the context of psychobabble, any word can mean anything you want. If you asked Deepak Chopra about quantum mechanics, you would get a "wealth" of…

Sorry to disappoint you again, but like you, I also take issue with “McMindfulness”. Another commenter (one of the first) made the point that “mindfulness” is an inaccurate translation of the Pali “sati”, which in the original context doesn’t mean much more than “remembering to be aware of the objects that your mind is attending to” - those objects being specific and often elaborate mental and emotional faculties. Sa…

> Sorry to disappoint you again...

Don't worry, I'm rarely disappointed. I try to keep my expectations low. In any event, your presumed identity (or lack thereof) is not really important to what I am saying.

> ... but like you, I also take issue with “McMindfulness”.

I don't necessarily have an issue with "mindfulness", that's just a technique of meditation as far as I'm concerned. Like other techniques of meditation, it clearly does something. I do think it can be beneficial, in the same way that hallucinogenic drugs can be beneficial.

Biochemically, these are similar in many ways. Yet, few people would dare claim that dropping acid can actually give you a deeper understanding about the nature of the universe. It sure can feel that way though.

> Another commenter (one of the first) made the point that “mindfulness” is an inaccurate translation of the Pali “sati”, which in the original context doesn’t mean much more than “remembering to be aware of the objects that your mind is attending to” - those objects being specific and often elaborate mental and emotional faculties. Sati is no system in itself.

See, I much rather have an issue with these foundational teachings. That stuff is woo-woo. That's the stuff you brought up.

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