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Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

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Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#41
post #33

I don’t believe Apple will transition away from x86 anytime soon but for different reasons. They would abandon the pro market if it moved to arm. Most x86 pro applications would have to be rewritten. What would be the incentive for software makers? Apple might very will be able to bring out a arm stack for consumer market but there is no indication that they can compete with x86 pro or server market.

Rewritten or recompiled?

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what do you mean? On a current MacBook Pro the memory is controlled by the CPU and the disk is attached to a PCIe root port also on the CPU. The "disk controller" as such has moved into the disk.

The only way to access the soldered-in NAND storage is through the T2 chip, which encrypts everything on-the-fly with a unique burned-in AES key. The T2 also acts as the SSD controller, controlling the raw NAND chips. You can see this in an iMac Pro teardown, as the removeable "SSDs" in it only have flash chips on them, no controller. The T2 is not involved with memory access AFAIK though. As for I/O, it does handle…

That's consolidating some controllers. It probably has more to do having fewer parts, fewer vendors, and better repair lock-in. It's not really an architectural step towards replacing the CPU--it's a southbridge with better marketing.

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#43
post #25
post #7

I see a lot of Surface Pro in the iPad[1]. That isn't a bad thing, it is great to have two design studios trying to out do each other. If you agree that these devices should work better on ARM chips rather than x86 chips, then the iPad has an advantage with an already ARM based ecosystem. Of course the Surface R/T tried that too, and stumbled. But I wonder if Apple saw that as a hint of where Microsoft might go. I fi…

I don't know how "Windows on NOT Intel" was antithetic to Gates way of thinking when Windows NT was running on most major RISC platforms while they were still relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT#Supported_platforms

That is a good point.

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#45
post #33

I don’t believe Apple will transition away from x86 anytime soon but for different reasons. They would abandon the pro market if it moved to arm. Most x86 pro applications would have to be rewritten. What would be the incentive for software makers? Apple might very will be able to bring out a arm stack for consumer market but there is no indication that they can compete with x86 pro or server market.

Rewritten or recompiled?

Somewhere in between. First patched, possibly significantly, then recompiled. Unless you have a lot of low level processing in ASM or intrinsics for simd. Then there will be a bit of rewriting.

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#46

I don't buy the permanent fork argument for one reason. AMD had the cancelled ARM version of Zen. There aren't any public plans to bring it back as far as I'm aware. But if Apple transitions past x86, it's going to provide critical mass for desktop ARM and the Zen chip will be back. AMD would be sitting on the highest performance single socket ARM chip, and Apple would just use that.

I can't see Apple using any ARM chip other than their own. If they commit to converting OS X to ARM then they'll either produce it in-house or, less likely, buy AMD (or maybe just buy AMD's Zen tech only). One of the main reasons for Apple to move to ARM is to control more of their technology stack. It's the direction they've been moving in for a while now and this would be part of that strategy.

The article claims Apple would need to keep x86 around indefinitely for the Mac Pro - I'm just saying that makes no sense.

Apple would definitely prefer to only use its own chips, but if they're unable to, using ARM Zen from AMD makes a million times more sense than x86 Intel.

I think you may be underestimating Apple's willingness to let the Mac Pro be an ugly duckling. This is a platform that they left stagnant for years after all.

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#47

ARM on the Macbook Pro would put a lot of software shops (I'm guessing tech and design firms are the main purchasers of Macs) using Docker in an awkward spot with their containers not running on dev machines.

Do these shops have to use the exact same container on their dev machine as elsewhere? Can they not build an ARM flavor of their container? Same Dockerfile but with an ARM base image instead of an x86_64 base image?

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#48
post #33

I don’t believe Apple will transition away from x86 anytime soon but for different reasons. They would abandon the pro market if it moved to arm. Most x86 pro applications would have to be rewritten. What would be the incentive for software makers? Apple might very will be able to bring out a arm stack for consumer market but there is no indication that they can compete with x86 pro or server market.

They did a migration like this once already for PPC -> Intel (twice if you count 68k -> PPC).

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#49
Apple would like to be less reliant on both Qualcomm (radio/modem) and Intel (CPU). Qualcomm is ahead on 5G and Intel was behind on 5G and 10nm. Apple needs TSMC's 5nm performance-per-watt for AR glasses and moving MacOS from x86 to Arm, and it carries keyboard debt into the post-Ive era.

  - Qualcomm settlement bridges the 5G modem gap
  - Intel modem acquihire rekindles dream of radio autonomy
  - Did Intel modem deal delay "x86-Arm" mobile Mac transition?
  - Can 16" Macbook + 2015 keyboard buy time for new designs?

Re: Apple: No Macintosh Forks. But the iPad...

#50
> Today, I’ll contend that moving the macOs to an Axx processor is a fantasy, it’s too complicated and will never happen, at least no time soon. Mac users are wedded to x86 processors for the foreseeable future.

No wonder Be Inc went belly up. Apple had switched before from architecture.

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