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Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

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Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#131

Post by piaste »

kartan wrote: post #72
klez wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

Same in Spain and Sweden when it comes to fiscal Id. Really useful. But the number is not enough to buy anything or open a bank account. For that you need the physical id card that is as hard as forge as passports. A very good system to make contracts, paying taxes, school registration, etc easy without allowing false impersonation.

Sweden's personnummer system is much more elegant - your code is your date of birth followed by a 4-digit unique identifier.

Everybody knows their personnummer by heart, while in Italy most people carry their health card around with the 16-character codice fiscale.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#132

Post by dsego »

klez wrote: post #65
DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

Interesting, Croatia moved away from personally identifiable information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_Master_Citizen_Number) to randomly chosen digits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identification_number....

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#133

Post by jaclaz »

Kipters wrote: post #130
klez wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Italy we are given a Codice Fiscale at birth, which is a string of 13 characters derived by 3 letters of the last name, 3 letters of the first name (usually these 6 letters are all consonants, but there are exceptions for names like Anna), 2 digits, a letter and two other digits representing the birth day, one letter and the digits representing the birthplace an one last letter which is a checksum. These are…

It's worth mentioning that in case of ambiguity (people with the same name born the same day in the same city) the algorithm solves it by allowing the 7 numbers in the code to be replaced with letters, thus allowing up to 128 variations of the same fiscal code

Again to be picky, not really-really, the algorithm does very little.

If there is not "homocody" the algorithm is "enough".

If there is, then it is allowed to use an algorithm to calculate a different code, BUT this can only be done by the Agenzia delle Entrate that keeps all codes in a database to avoid duplications:

https://quifinanza.it/tasse/codice-fiscale-come-si-calcola-e...

Since the Codice Fiscale comes physically as a credit-card-like piece of plastic, there are no real issues with these "non-regular" codes in person, but - as carlob stated - a lot of online modules (which tend to verify the validity of the supplied Codice Fiscale against the "normal algorithm" applied to the other data supplied in the form, in an attempt to minimize errors/typos) do not usually recognize these "manually" generated by the Agency codes and reject the form.

In a perfect world such forms should warn the user that the Codice Fiscale is not valid (i.e. cannot be recreated by the "normal" algorithm) and provide the possibility to explicitly confirm.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#134

Post by Iv »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #39
Iv wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IDs were being asked for by police and others as a matter of course rather than of suspicion. Is the existence of an ID really the problem there? I like the idea that having to provide an ID is optional and the police can't force someone to comply without a good reason, but the existence of an UID for people seems really necessary in a lot of cases, to prove someone did not vote 10 times in an election, to track yo…

UID per se no. Asking for it, most definitely yes. This is a hill I would die on. I have a passport and driving licence. I can be asked to produce my driving licence in limited circumstances (suspected of driving offences and stopped) at a police station within 7 days. Every other production of ID is optional, except passport at international ports. No ID needed for NHS care, dental care - there's an NHS number but I…

So you are in favor of several national IDs, but just don't want one? I must say I don't follow.

Forbidding to interconnect personal files is a different issue than having an individual UID

And I would be VERY surprised if the UK government was unable to connect passport IDs and criminal records.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#135

Post by tsomctl »

dTal wrote: post #99
mindcrime wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. I've experienced a bit of this first-hand. Growing up, I, my father, and my paternal grandfather all shared the same first name and last name, and all lived within a couple of miles of each other (my father and I obviously lived in the same residence a big chunk of my childhood, and grandpa lived just a short hop away). Our mail (and gosh knows what else) got mixed up all the time. To make it even worse, I…

>and phone calls are always weird when I answer "Hi, this is Phil" and the person on the other end goes "Oh, sorry, I was calling for $FIRST_NAME". So don't answer the phone that way. There's no reason to volunteer info to a complete stranger you know nothing about anyway. All you have to do is say "Hello?" Then the caller will say "I'm looking for ", and then you can handle it however you like.

When you're a small business owner, and you have potential customers calling your cell, it's polite and professional to state who you are.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#136

Post by dcbadacd »

henrikschroder wrote: post #85
aasasd wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afaik a name was/is believed to have the power to summon a supernatural being that it identifies. God and the devil both have a dozen or more euphemisms. (I've also heard about a rather non-Christiany belief of ‘true names’ having command over some beings, but not sure that it's not a modern fantasy invention.) Dunno about material beings, but hiccups are believed in some places to be caused by someone remembering yo…

It was absolutely a thing, and the best example is that the old Indo-European word for bear is eradicated in Northern European languages, because it was thought that the true name of the animal would summon it, and bears were not something you wanted around. So instead of using the taboo name, everyone used the noa name for the animal, a euphemism, which is why "bear" actually means "the brown one". In Slavic languag…

Interestingly Estonian might be nowadays an exception to the trend you mentioned and used the other names earlier. People call wolves and bears respectively "hunt" and "karu" instead of "susi" (the same as to what the Finns use primarily I think) and "mesikäpp" ("honey paw" which has strong connotations to "likes to eat honey") nowadays.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#137

Post by ivanhoe »

piaste wrote: post #131
kartan wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Spain and Sweden when it comes to fiscal Id. Really useful. But the number is not enough to buy anything or open a bank account. For that you need the physical id card that is as hard as forge as passports. A very good system to make contracts, paying taxes, school registration, etc easy without allowing false impersonation.

Sweden's personnummer system is much more elegant - your code is your date of birth followed by a 4-digit unique identifier. Everybody knows their personnummer by heart, while in Italy most people carry their health card around with the 16-character codice fiscale.

Well in Croatia OIB is a random 11 digit number, but still most people I know managed to memorize theirs, especially if you're an entrepreneur running a business and have to fill it all the time.

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#138

Post by jplayer01 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #42

I worked in insurance for over five years. One of the more common reasons we had to send out HIPAA notification letters was due to relatives in the same city with similar or identical names getting claims processed under the wrong policy. These were very often two male relatives -- father and son, twin brothers, cousins. They sometimes even lived on the same street. There's also this story about two women with the sa…

I read through the whole article. It feels like a Kafka novel, and it's the kind of thing that makes me fear any institution with unchecked, unaccountable power over other people. Even if issues are discovered, there's no way to really solve them in the context of the bureaucracy and if you happen to be affected, you're just simply screwed. People either don't care or have some interest in the system being as dysfunctional as it is (see any number of US citizens being held indefinitely as "illegal immigrants").

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#139

Post by gregw2 »

fouc wrote: post #96
ddlatham wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm reminded of a time in college when my roommate, who majored in classics, came home from class today and told me that they discussed a theory that the Iliad and Odyssey, were not actually written by Homer, but rather by a different place poet who happened to have the same name. "So they were actually written by Homer then?" I thought it hilarious, because the only identity of Homer I knew was the guy who wrote…

I heard there was a similar confusion with Jesus Christ, basically another prophet of the same name around the same time. One got killed on the cross but the other one lived, leading to the 'came back from death' rebirth story.

So the apostles who lived with him for several years were also just "confused"?

Re: Why we don't use Galileo's last name (2009)

#140

Post by astura »

tsomctl wrote: post #135
dTal wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and phone calls are always weird when I answer "Hi, this is Phil" and the person on the other end goes "Oh, sorry, I was calling for $FIRST_NAME". So don't answer the phone that way. There's no reason to volunteer info to a complete stranger you know nothing about anyway. All you have to do is say "Hello?" Then the caller will say "I'm looking for ", and then you can handle it however you like.

When you're a small business owner, and you have potential customers calling your cell, it's polite and professional to state who you are.

Why not answer with you business name?
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