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The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

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Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#181

Post by ghettoimp »

Spooky23 wrote: post #151
mieseratte wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, that's orthogonal to the issue; documentation of your right to vote is not one of the requirements of possessing that right. According to whom exactly? As others have pointed out in this discussion, that's not how the US system was designed. There is no inalienable right to vote.

Amendments to the constitution have establish the right. As a society, we decided that tenants, people of non-white races, women, and 18-20 year olds should be allowed to vote. We also eliminated odious standards like counting then-slaves as 60% human.

I'm no expert and could be missing something. But it doesn't look to me like we have an "inalienable" right to vote. Various amendments do say that our right to vote can't be revoked for certain specific reasons, e.g.,:

- The 15th amendment prohibits denying the right to vote on certain grounds (race, color) but doesn't go beyond that. - The 19th prohibits denying the right to vote based on sex. - The 24th prohibits denying the right to vote (in certain federal elections) based on outstanding tax bills. - The 26th prohibits denying citizens over 18 the right to vote based on age.

But this seems like a weirdly specific list. If the reason isn't on the list, is it still fair game? For instance, AFAIK some states don't let convicted felons vote.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#182

Post by ghettoimp »

dymk wrote: post #119
ColanR wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, that's orthogonal to the issue; documentation of your right to vote is not one of the requirements of possessing that right. (as parent said, "A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation.") It is a dramatic improvement that the people with the right to vote has been expanded since the 1700s, but what you said doesn't actually speak against the basic idea that documentation is not relevant t…

How do you prevent fraudulent voting without being able to tie a vote back to a real, documented person?

Indelible ink or similar, perhaps? Maybe some fancy crypto scheme?

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#183

Post by Spooky23 »

codesnik wrote: post #78
tptacek wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other modern democracies have different traditions with respect to documentation; we don't have a national identity card either, nor do we require people to carry identification with them. Lots of voters, particularly elderly voters, don't have formal identification. Instances of voter fraud in the US are vanishingly rare. It's a really dumb crime; stiff penalties, lots of legwork, and an infinitesimal likelihood of…

it is really interesting that in US and countries like that where voter fraud is relatively easy it's almost nonexistant, but in Russia, for example (where you need your passport to vote and where you can't vote just anywhere, but on a particular station in the region you have a stamp of residence in your passport, and yeah, there's a list of voters everywhere, in advance)... Well, bussing exist there. Buses with "vo…

Where voter fraud happens it isn’t random people deciding to vote 3 times. Why would anyone bother?

Actual vote fraud is about political machinery. Now in the US the real election shenanigans are much cheaper and more effective... the big pools of black money and gerrymandering are the tools of modern political machines.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#184

Post by yspeak »

bdcravens wrote: post #13

A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.

Article is filled with misinformation. And to rail against the US as a whole displays either lack of knowledge or intent to push a political agenda which this clearly is. Corporate formation is state governed so each state law is different though usually similar. Corporate Directors and LLC managers are usually publicly disclosed. Ownership should never have to be disclosed as corporations by their nature are designed to allow ownership to be sold easily to raise capital so may change frequently. None of this has anything to do with taxes or legal compliance which is easily enforced as corporations have to have publicly disclosed registered agents to receive papers and theu lose in court if they don't show up. Most are one or two person companies organized to protect individual liability. Many set up for real estate to serve as vehicles for investment. Those that are public corporations are extremely transparent through SEC filings and shareholder rights. The agenda in this article is clearly to name, shame, tax,politicize, demonize, and socialize small and private businesses that drive the economy and employ the vast majority of the people in this country.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#185

Post by yspeak »

Spooky23 wrote: post #140
bdcravens wrote: post #13

A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.

A corporation creates a fictitious person. Allowing the beneficial interests to be hidden is disgusting and not compatible with a free market. Long ago, a corporate charter required an act of the state legislature to authorize it. Obviously that’s a heavy handed approach, but the idea that any agent of any person or other entity can anonymously create a company is ridiculous.

Corporations are still chartered by the state. Corporations allow capital to be raised and transfered.A necessity in a successful economy. Have a 401k ? Own a stock or mutual fund ? You own a corporation. That wouldn't be possible without the corporate structure.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#186

Post by mehrdadn »

slg wrote: post #173
mehrdadn wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you're assuming anonymity and the ability to "decide later if my vote was valid or not"? How would that work?

The process will vary by jurisdiction, but one approach is to identify if a voter has questionable eligibility when they arrive to the polling place, allow them to fill out a ballot, have them seal it in an envelope, and then label the envelope with the voter's information. You can then take the time to verify the votes validity before the envelope is reopened and the ballot is counted with the other votes. And just…

Oh I see. That makes sense if you can get the government to use paper ballots everywhere (best of luck in the US). It does make me wonder how well it would work out in practice though. If verification happens at the same time as the vote, then you can try to correct any issues that come up right then. (Maybe bring additional documentation right then? I don't know.) Whereas if you introduce a delay in between... how many people are actually going to go through the hassle of dealing with it later (especially imagine having to take days off work) to work through the legal bureaucracy and have their votes counted? I feel in the US it seems a little bit too optimistic that it would work out fine, but maybe I'm just pessimistic...

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#187

Post by optimiz3 »

nrb wrote: post #178
optimiz3 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people also have a right to use. How do you prevent the tragedy of the commons without knowing who has what?

> How do you prevent the tragedy of the commons without knowing who has what? Does this exact argument not apply to the "anonymous" corporations mentioned in the article?

Registering a corporation doesn't deny others utility of a communally owned good.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#188

Post by turk73 »

reaperducer wrote: post #14
jdoliner wrote: post #4

I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...

In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. In many of the states where I've lived (13 so far), all that was needed to vot…

[dead]

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#189

Post by baddox »

deogeo wrote: post #94
baddox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re physically in a jurisdiction, you are subject to its laws. Isn’t the supposed point of democracy to give people a voice in the government that rules over them?

Democracy is also an expression of self-determination of a people. Meaning they don't have to let anyone who visits their country sway their decisions.

Who decides what “a people” is? You have a bunch of people in a geographic region, and some of those people get to decide that they are “the people” and that only they get to vote? Sounds pretty blatantly undemocratic.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#190

Post by closeparen »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #18

Went to rent a mailbox at the UPS Store. My drivers license and passport weren't enough identification. I needed something additional. The owner suggested I get a library card and then he could rent me the mailbox. What did the library accept as identification? My drivers license. That was all. Seemed like a weird little bit of bureaucratic red tape that accomplished pretty much nothing.

California DMV wouldn’t take my lease because it was just a printout. Changed my address with Chase from my phone while in line (no verification), walked over to the branch to get a certified statement with the new address, walked it back into the DMV, got the address on my license.

The credential that actually proves where I live is rejected while the one that just repeats my arbitrary inputs is accepted!

I understand there’s a strong deterrent but any reasonably smart person could defraud this. They seem not to be even trying.

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