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The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

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Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#151

Post by Spooky23 »

mieseratte wrote: post #126
ColanR wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, that's orthogonal to the issue; documentation of your right to vote is not one of the requirements of possessing that right. (as parent said, "A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation.") It is a dramatic improvement that the people with the right to vote has been expanded since the 1700s, but what you said doesn't actually speak against the basic idea that documentation is not relevant t…

> However, that's orthogonal to the issue; documentation of your right to vote is not one of the requirements of possessing that right. According to whom exactly? As others have pointed out in this discussion, that's not how the US system was designed. There is no inalienable right to vote.

Amendments to the constitution have establish the right.

As a society, we decided that tenants, people of non-white races, women, and 18-20 year olds should be allowed to vote. We also eliminated odious standards like counting then-slaves as 60% human.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#152

Post by anigbrowl »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #28
reaperducer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. In many of the states where I've lived (13 so far), all that was needed to vot…

> My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. How do we ensure non-citizens aren’t voting? We accept many visitors - refugees, H1B, tourists, F1/I-20, etc. None are granted voting rights.

Do we need to do more than we already do? Despite the baying of certain political hounds there is no evidence that this is an actual problem.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#153

Post by reaperducer »

mc32 wrote: post #111
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully we get self driving cars you don't need a license for ASAP, so the expectation of every adult constantly carrying around an ID decreases.

Not if you want to buy cold medicine, get a library card, get some beers, buy some legal pot, air b&b, zip car, U-Haul , getting a job, etc. So, you will still need to carry it --unless you want to risk having to go back home in order to do any of the above.

Not if you want to buy cold medicine, get a library card, get some beers, buy some legal pot, air b&b, zip car, U-Haul , getting a job, etc. So, you will still need to carry it --unless you want to risk having to go back home in order to do any of the above.

You need to have it for those things. You don't need to "carry" it for those things. Nobody does all of those things all the time every day. Going to buy some beer? Bring your ID. Going to walk the dog? Feck off, cop. I'm a citizen minding my own business.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#154

Post by rahimnathwani »

The information for California is incorrect. At least in San Francisco:

- you can get a library card without any proof of address (with this type of card, you can only check out one physical item at a time: https://sfpl.libanswers.com/faq/129952)

- Phone number and email address are each optional fields on the application form: https://sflib1.sfpl.org/selfreg

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#155

Post by Spooky23 »

dymk wrote: post #119
ColanR wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, that's orthogonal to the issue; documentation of your right to vote is not one of the requirements of possessing that right. (as parent said, "A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation.") It is a dramatic improvement that the people with the right to vote has been expanded since the 1700s, but what you said doesn't actually speak against the basic idea that documentation is not relevant t…

How do you prevent fraudulent voting without being able to tie a vote back to a real, documented person?

How do you tie a vote back to a single human (I’m unaware of what an unreal person is) without denying another’s right?

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#156

Post by darkerside »

anigbrowl wrote: post #138
bdcravens wrote: post #13

A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.

A library is not loaning you property, it is a public good which you already paid for and have a right to use, the administrative overhead is for the convenience of all library users. A corporation's activities are unknowable but not being a real person it is not entitled to an assumption of good faith and there is no particular right to create new legal entities. We should definitely know who the beneficial owners o…

> which you already paid for

Unknowable without knowing who you actually are

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#157

Post by pdpi »

lutorm wrote: post #70
pdpi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It serves as an argument as to what sort of requirements might be reasonable to ask for in order to exercise a constitutional right. If asking for ID to buy a gun is reasonable, then the argument of whether it’s reasonable to ask for ID to vote can’t be one of principle, but has to be one of degree.

The degree seems pretty large, though, since it's the difference between an unclearly worded constitutional amendment that does not in any plain reading say that "buying a gun" is a constitutional right, to literally the right to have a say in how your nation is run. I think of it this way: If you think that you're being unconstitutionally prevented from buying a gun because you don't have an ID you can at least vote…

While I tend to agree with you that it's a fairly large gap, I can see how others might not see it as a much smaller difference.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#158

Post by mc32 »

reaperducer wrote: post #143
mc32 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not unusual among modern democracies for voters to provide proof of identity. We’re (and the UK?) the outliers in that, so no, I think it’s unrelated to authoritarianism. It’s got more to do with ensuring integrity of votes. India, Mexico, Argentina, Germany, Taiwan, Brazil, Iceland, Costa Rica, etc, require it. Among Americans all major demographics show majority support for voter ID reqs.

It’s not unusual among modern democracies for voters to provide proof of identity. We’re (and the UK?) the outliers in that, so no, I think it’s unrelated to authoritarianism. It’s got more to do with ensuring integrity of votes. India, Mexico, Argentina, Germany, Taiwan, Brazil, Iceland, Costa Rica, etc, require it. To which I can only think, "So what?" Why does the United States need to be like other countries? The…

I dunno. 30 years ago there was hardly any ID theft. It was very rare. Today, it's widespread and a daily occurrence. Things change. We need to lock doors. It's not the world it used to be.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#159

Post by anigbrowl »

mc32 wrote: post #111
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully we get self driving cars you don't need a license for ASAP, so the expectation of every adult constantly carrying around an ID decreases.

Not if you want to buy cold medicine, get a library card, get some beers, buy some legal pot, air b&b, zip car, U-Haul , getting a job, etc. So, you will still need to carry it --unless you want to risk having to go back home in order to do any of the above.

You don't need an ID for many of those things, and you shouldn't.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#160

Post by anigbrowl »

souprock wrote: post #20
teachrdan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary: There were only four known cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections[0]; more stringent voting requirements suppresses voting, especially by poor, black and/or Latinx voters.[1] It certainly seems the case that more damage has been done to society via corporations to which no human person can be associated than by voter fraud. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-... [1] h…

It's pretty circular reasoning to argue against methods for detecting voter fraud on the basis that we haven't detected voter fraud. If there is voter fraud, it might go away if we got reliable detection. Fraud is less likely when being caught is certain, and it is far more likely when being caught is about as likely as getting hit by lightening. Even if there isn't voter fraud, the mere fact that people are worried…

Even if there isn't voter fraud, the mere fact that people are worried about it is undermining trust in our elections.

One side is deliberately leveraging it for that purpose, and it's the same side that has consistently blocked legislation to increase election security, set standards for voting machines, and more, so as far as I am concerned they're forfeited the right to have their arguments taken seriously after years of bad faith politicking.

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