The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#61

Post by elliekelly » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:49 AM UTC

dfeojm-zlib wrote: post #31

Here's an example of what you need for a Delaware C-corp: https://www.incnow.com/delaware-corporation/ - Name of the corporation - Name and address of the Registered Agent of the corporation (usually a mail forwarding service) - Statement of the type of business that the corporation will engage in - Number of shares of authorized stock that the corporation will issue - Par value of each share - Name and signature of…

At first I thought, this makes no sense. Why would the Patriot Act care more about who's getting a library card than incorporating when the dirty money is obviously flowing through the entity?

And then I realized, the government gets all of the ID information they need about the corporation the moment the entity needs to open a bank account. ID not just for the single corporator, but information about all of the officers and directors, and increasingly, about shareholders and major investors as well.

From the government's perspective, it actually does make quite a bit more sense to gather more (and better) information through the banking system at a later time. It's low risk and the additional information is significantly more valuable.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#62

Post by manigandham » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:49 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #14

jdoliner wrote: post #4

I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...

In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. In many of the states where I've lived (13 so far), all that was needed to vot…

Walking down the street and voting are not the same thing.

ID's are common, the vast majority already have a passport or driver license. You need this much to even be employed so bringing it with you for an election is not an onerous requirement, it's actually completely reasonable.

EDIT: It seems HN has rate-limiting for comments now.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#63

Post by tptacek » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:50 AM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #36

reaperducer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. In many of the states where I've lived (13 so far), all that was needed to vot…

Do you think voting should be limited to citizens of the country? Or that each person should only get 1 vote? If so that seems impossible to implement without requiring identification, if not that seems tantamount to infringing on people's right to vote, if someone can vote twice against me while I only get 1 vote because I'm following the rules then that means my vote effectively wasn't counted.

Voting across the United States is registered, and voter registration requires identification. In Cook County, where I vote and election judge, voters are assigned to relatively small precincts, which track votes during the day on paper and electronic ledgers. If Judy Blue comes in and votes in the morning and you try to come in and vote for her later, you won't be able to check in. If the reverse happens, Judy makes a stink and there's a process for going through the ledger and checking identification. In practice, neither thing ever actually happens: "retail" voter fraud in the United States is practically nonexistent. It's an expensive crime with stiff penalties that is extraordinarily unlikely to impact the election.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#64

Post by lurquer » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:51 AM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #13

A library is loaning you property, usually collateral-free. A corporation is just a placeholder essentially for the activities it will perform, each of which will likely have far more stringent requirements than a library card.

Moreover, the State collects a filing fee... That is, a library card grants you permission to borrow something from the State, while the Corp application entails you giving the State your money.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#65

Post by tptacek » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:52 AM UTC

foreach9885 wrote: post #55

jakelazaroff wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP isn't arguing against detecting voter fraud. They're arguing against making the registration process harder in order to prevent (basically nonexistent) voter fraud. The reason people in the U.S. are worried about voter fraud is that one side of the political spectrum is pushing the narrative — without any real evidence — that voter fraud is rampant. We shouldn't make it more difficult to vote in order to fix a mad…

Until we can authenticate voters, elections are invalid by default. How would you even prove that fraud is NOT happening, when many US states are essentially on the honor system? In California, I can register to vote from a Russian IP address without any form of ID or proof of residence. It's even easier than getting food stamps. Let me know if you want me to dig up proof for you.

In fact, California voter registration requires both identification and proof of residency. Please do provide the proof you're referring to.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#66

Post by quartz » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:53 AM UTC

drbojingle wrote: post #25

Great, I'll get my kids corporations for their 7th birthday.

This could actually be a really fun project to do with your child. It's a pretty inexpensive way to teach them about how companies work, the basics of organization, and even introduce them to the idea of taxes.

Registering a simple company in your local state, issuing stock, designating your board, doing your meetings and minutes, filing your $0 tax return, then dissolving it would probably only cost you ~$100 - $200 in supplies and fees.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#67

Post by cowsandmilk » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:54 AM UTC

jdoliner wrote: post #36

reaperducer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. My thoughts on this are old school. Like 1700's old school. A person's right to vote exists with or without documentation. A piece of paper, an entry in a ledger, or a row in a database has no bearing on whether that right exists, or should be exercised. In many of the states where I've lived (13 so far), all that was needed to vot…

Do you think voting should be limited to citizens of the country? Or that each person should only get 1 vote? If so that seems impossible to implement without requiring identification, if not that seems tantamount to infringing on people's right to vote, if someone can vote twice against me while I only get 1 vote because I'm following the rules then that means my vote effectively wasn't counted.

> Do you think voting should be limited to citizens of the country?

Oddly, I’m not aware of any state that requires you to prove citizenship to register to vote.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#68

Post by mberning » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:55 AM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #9

jdoliner wrote: post #4

I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...

To the contrary: There were only four known cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections[0]; more stringent voting requirements suppresses voting, especially by poor, black and/or Latinx voters.[1] It certainly seems the case that more damage has been done to society via corporations to which no human person can be associated than by voter fraud. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-... [1] h…

Are you saying poor people and brown people don’t know how to get a state ID? That’s pretty ridiculous and in the latter case racist.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#69

Post by foreach9885 » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:56 AM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #9

jdoliner wrote: post #4

I don't see any particular reason why the identification process for a corporation should be more stringent than a library card. What is astonishing to me is that both are meaningfully more stringent than voting. In Minnesota for example, all one needs is another registered voter to vouch for them. https://www.sos.state.mn.us/elections-voting/register-to-vot...

To the contrary: There were only four known cases of voter fraud in the 2016 elections[0]; more stringent voting requirements suppresses voting, especially by poor, black and/or Latinx voters.[1] It certainly seems the case that more damage has been done to society via corporations to which no human person can be associated than by voter fraud. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-... [1] h…

Because we have unauthenticated voting in most blue states, we can not know how rampant voter fraud is. The only detectable voter fraud would be extreme corner cases, where they have a confession, or some other kind of evidence. Because as of right now, we are not allowed to verify who it is that is voting.

Frankly, the federal government should not accept the outcomes of any elections from California, until they can hold a real election.

Re: The Library Card Project: The Ease of Forming Anonymous Companies in the U.S.

#70

Post by lutorm » Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 12:56 AM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #39

Operyl wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was that relevant to the conversation?

It serves as an argument as to what sort of requirements might be reasonable to ask for in order to exercise a constitutional right. If asking for ID to buy a gun is reasonable, then the argument of whether it’s reasonable to ask for ID to vote can’t be one of principle, but has to be one of degree.

The degree seems pretty large, though, since it's the difference between an unclearly worded constitutional amendment that does not in any plain reading say that "buying a gun" is a constitutional right, to literally the right to have a say in how your nation is run.

I think of it this way: If you think that you're being unconstitutionally prevented from buying a gun because you don't have an ID you can at least vote for people who would change that. If you can't vote because you don't have an ID, though, you're SOL.

Edit: The second amendment even refers to "well regulated", which to me seems to imply that the intent was to, well, have some regulation of the matter.