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IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

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Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#311
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a legal standpoint, it's a commodity not a currency. And US citizens who trade foreign currencies are subject to tax on their gains.

From a legal standpoint, it's muddled. The CFTC claims jurisdiction over Bitcoin and Ethereum as commodities. The IRS claims that cryptocurrency is "property" and doesn't elaborate further, except to say that it falls under existing capital gains rules. The SEC claims that most other tokens are securities and fall under its jurisdiction, but does not claim jurisdiction over Bitcoin and Ethereum because the CFTC has a…

> given that the U.S. Constitution grants the government the sole power to coin money

Not true. It grants Congress the power to coin money (Article I §8 ¶5), and prohibits the states from doing the same (§10 ¶1), but it says nothing about private citizens. Coins can legally exist which were not created by Congress or by any state. Arcade tokens would be one obvious example.

In any case "to coin money" refers specifically to making coins, as in physically stamping them out of metal. Whether or not they're treated as "currency" in a legal sense, cryptocurrencies are obviously not physical coins so rules about coining money do not apply.

From a tax perspective, the special treatment applied to foreign currencies is a result of specific treaty obligations. It only applies to small amounts of income—under $200 IIRC—and is meant to avoid the need to report small fluctuations in value when you hold foreign currencies temporarily for travel. In other respects the rules are the same as for cryptocurrencies, or really any other kind of property apart from USD. It's not surprising that the currency rules are not applied to something like Bitcoin which we have no treaties about and whose use is not strongly correlated with travel outside the country.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New scams have been sending fake letters claiming to be from the irs.

I haven't seen the letters. Isn't that considered a federal crime since it's fraud via the US Postal Service?

Isn't it fraud already a federal crime?

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#313
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This applies to any forex. If you're in the US, but you buy a coffee using CAD somewhere near the border, you have to keep track of that transaction and report it as a cap gain (or loss if you want). Things get weird when you use a strange currency for any transaction.

Surely this is not true? It doesn't seem consistent with the IRS's guidance [1], anyway. You would simply value the expense in USD at the time of the transaction. There is no capital gain or loss. [1]: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

Any time you "realize" a currency or commodity (that is, sell it or trade it for something else) you need to pay tax on the capital gain, if there is one. At some point, you purchased those CAD. If the value of CAD is higher when you use it to pay for your coffee, there was a capital gain, and you just realized it.

Say you purchased X amount of CAD a few years back for $0.70 USD. It doesn't matter how much you purchased.

Now some time goes by, and the current market rate for CAD is $1.00 USD. You go ahead and purchase your $5 CAD coffee. By doing that, you've realized $5 CAD of your investment, which is currently worth $5 USD, but when you bought it it was only worth $3.50 USD. So you made a capital gain of $1.50, and you have to report and pay tax on that.

Whether you purchased a coffee or converted to USD doesn't matter -- the important part is that you made a gain on the CAD over time, then used it for something.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, these all say the same thing and aren't _that_ scary aside from the fact they are from the IRS: Amend your prior returns if you owe money. I am curious if they expect the same if you lost money.

IANAL, I'm not a tax expert, but I believe you can deduct losses when converting to/from fiat currency (US dollars). Which is where taxation would take effect. If you invested $10k in crypto mining equipment, you can deduct that investment (over 5 years or something similar), you then successfully mine 5 coins. These coins are/were worth whatever exchange rate you could get. Until you use/exchange them, you aren't ta…

> IANAL, I'm not a tax expert, but I believe you can deduct losses when converting to/from fiat currency (US dollars). Which is where taxation would take effect.

You are flat out wrong. You are taxed on any income or transaction, no matter the currency used.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#315
post #300
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate that people treat currencies as an "investment". In my mind, crypto concurrency is the perfect value-store (like gold used to be), not an appreciating asset. Yet because people treat it like stocks, it behaves like stocks.

Crypto like bitcoin is necessarily an appreciating asset because it is deflationary by its very nature. Over a long enough time period, if BTC were in fact behaving like a currency (that is, as a medium for the exchange of value, rather than a store of value) the value of BTC as expressed in exchangable goods must rise, unless the global production of goods contracts, and there is no reason to expect that to happen.…

>Crypto like bitcoin is necessarily an appreciating asset because it is deflationary by its very nature.

That assumes that the demand for cryptocurrencies remains constant. If the demand for cryptocurrencies drops faster than the deflation of the currency, then the value goes down.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#316

So why do we have to file? Why cant the IRS just tell us every year if we owe or not and how much?

Historically, it was not possible for the IRS to figure it out without an investigation that costs more than most people pay in taxes. Computers exist now, but changing the status quo would be politically challenging, and may still involve a net cost to the budget because the government would be performing a service that was previously the responsibility of taxpayers. However, the experience of other countries suggests that partial automation is well worth the investment, even though full automation is impossible, so the other commenters griping about lobbyists are correct too.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#317
To highlight how nuts this could be:

I travel to India every year, and I always carry with me a few hundred USD worth of rupees (the local currency).

It would be insane for me to try and track the value of the rupees (in USD) for every time I bought something, and calculate the deltas between that and what I originally gave to the money changer. It is completely impractical to do that, and while I'm not an accountant, I have an intuition that for any reasonable amount of money that any traveller would be carrying with them, the fluctuations are irrelevant.

And yet this is what people using cryptocurrencies are expected to do.

Obviously if there is a large capital loss or gain, then this should be reported on your taxes, and I suspect the same is true for foreign currency exchange.

I guess to ask a question: are individuals expected to track the fluctuations in USD value of their cash while travelling? If so: is there a threshold? Why is crypto different (other than some belief that it might be more convenient).

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#318
post #317

To highlight how nuts this could be: I travel to India every year, and I always carry with me a few hundred USD worth of rupees (the local currency). It would be insane for me to try and track the value of the rupees (in USD) for every time I bought something, and calculate the deltas between that and what I originally gave to the money changer. It is completely impractical to do that, and while I'm not an accountant…

The IRS has decided to treat cryptocurrency as an asset (like gold) instead of a currency.

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never, ever talk to the authorities directly. Always hire an attorney. Exercise your fifth amendment rights.

This is so overkill. What if I am just moving and reporting my new address? What if I am 20 years old and never had any income?

Why do you have to report a new address when you move? To whom?

Re: IRS sends warning letters to more than 10k cryptocurrency holders

#320
post #318
post #317

To highlight how nuts this could be: I travel to India every year, and I always carry with me a few hundred USD worth of rupees (the local currency). It would be insane for me to try and track the value of the rupees (in USD) for every time I bought something, and calculate the deltas between that and what I originally gave to the money changer. It is completely impractical to do that, and while I'm not an accountant…

The IRS has decided to treat cryptocurrency as an asset (like gold) instead of a currency.

Which I think is a mistake. The tax code should be accommodating; it should not be adversarial.

Many people do not treat bitcoin like gold, they treat it like a paypal account.

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