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How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

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Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#41

This and watching HBO's Chernobyl have prompted me to ask: how do communist countries work? Is there something I can read or watch to best understand things like who owns these farms, who profits from them, how do they pay workers, how do you buy a house, etc It's all as foreign to me as medieval peasants and nobles so I don't know how it works from day to day. The fact that China now has billionaires, and billionair…

It was pretty simple in the USSR: the government owns the farms, the government profits from them, they pay the workers (very often in product).

The government/party says a new farm will be created here, the order goes out.

It is all controlled from the top (communist party) through the regional council, through the local council (often a few councils inbetween). After the farm is established, a few inspections by party officials and it's all set up and operating.

This created the perfect opportunity to fudge reports like there's no tomorrow and essentially the party had no idea what is actually going on.

Papers say production is fine, orders are to maintain levels, report comes back saying everything is proceeding as ordered. In reality, production was higher than reported (with no room to grow if ordered), workers are skimming product, managers are skimming product, local council is skimming product and money, regional council is skimming money. To make up for the shit pay, but also because why not, the party won't miss it.

Orders come in to increase production, report says "no can do, need more equipment, need more land, need more workers". Of course, more than is actually needed, so someone can have their own tractors.

The black market, often in barter, was huge.

The party in Moscow could not contain its spread even with their network of spies. People trusted each other, not the party, the police were in on it.

Not sure if that's how it works in China, but they have the advantage of instant communications, instant checks on any level, modern surveillance.

This turned out messy, I'm too tired.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work at a very large (and reasonably well-educated) company that had coworkers from everywhere (LA, SF, Seattle, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Miami, NYC, etc) and it was quite a common misconception amongst almost all of them (and to be fair, I also met a handful of Europeans who thought the same). Also very common was the belief that Singapore is a city in China.

I don’t think you would ever hear something like that in Seattle. I’m guessing deep south somewhere?

One of my Seattle coworkers was one of the specific people who I was thinking of when writing the above comment, actually.

I think it's less common now due to stuff like pictures of Marina Bay Sands going viral over the past several years, as well as movies like Crazy Rich Asians "educating" people that Singapore is a modern city. But around ~2010, not so much.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#45
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most upvoted answer is probably the most awesome pierce of information I’ve seen in 2019 though, holy socks that’s a great Quora answer. And it’s the top answer, clearly distinguishable from the answers you’re referring to, which I think is better than most social media, HN included.

There are a lot of snide remarks in that answer, however, detracting from otherwise great information. (Eg what does the Dalai Lama and Uighur oppression have to do with this?)

> what does the Dalai Lama and Uighur oppression have to do with this

The snark likely comes from the fact that Xinjiang is consistently portrayed in Western media as a nightmarish, dystopian, Orwellian hellhole suffering under the iron fisted oppression of the Communist Party. They ignore the very real benefits that have been afforded to millions of poverty-stricken people in Xinjiang via progressive government policies, while tunnel visioning solely on human rights abuses.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#46
post #16

A lot of superdefensive people over at quora everytime you ask a question about china.

Even the first answer has “Western media won’t tell you this”. Like there’s some western conspiracy to downplay Chinese agriculture industry. The Chinese media is constantly telling their people that the US is plotting against China and is hostile to them, so the citizens don’t get any crazy ideas like democracy and human rights. While simultaneously amplifying the bad news coming out of America to show the ‘dangers’…

The tone is honestly understandable. It pains me to bring up this cliched point, but is the US media not constantly telling us that China is hostile, China is plotting? As someone with a foot in both worlds, US coverage of China is _at least_ equally warped. It's funny; to my parents and relatives in China I'm perceived as having a US bias, but everywhere else I get characterized as being too Chinese.

It's hard for me to emphasize enough how little typical Westerners understand about Asia. It goes both ways but I think they're doing a better job of it - at least in my opinion, China appreciates US culture much more than the US appreciates Chinese culture.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#47
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the first answer has “Western media won’t tell you this”. Like there’s some western conspiracy to downplay Chinese agriculture industry. The Chinese media is constantly telling their people that the US is plotting against China and is hostile to them, so the citizens don’t get any crazy ideas like democracy and human rights. While simultaneously amplifying the bad news coming out of America to show the ‘dangers’…

I found that comment a bit bizarre, too, as an American. Many (most?) people in America simply don’t care about this or have any general curiosity about the world outside of them. America is the land of fast food and unsustainable cheap beef; we have a president that denies climate change, so it’s no wonder that there is simply no interest in understanding sustainable fishing by a large portion of the population, reg…

Americans work longer hours and save less than most other developed nations. Plus they don’t have extensive social safety nets. If you’re struggling to get by it’s hard to be curious about the world. Also the country is ginormous.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#48

A lot of superdefensive people over at quora everytime you ask a question about china.

Usually either: 1. Paid Chinese State-sponsored propaganda/troll [1] OR 2. Super nationalist Chinese person (most are) either from China or abroad who take major offense when "their" views are challenged. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/17/how-to-spot-a-state-fun...

Besides being a broad generalization, your point #2 applies to basically anybody on the internet who has their views challenged, to be honest. Doesn't need to be a paid troll or nationalist at all.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#49
Chinese farm productivity is shite, and the government knows it.

It is true that the state throws absolutely colossal amount of resources on geoengineering and agriculture, yet to little effect.

China is nowhere near Holland or other advanced agriculture player in calories production per unit of labour.

Out of close to a 100 officials I went by through my career, I only managed to befriend two. From those two, I barely know in the most generalised terms of what is happening in top tiers.

Agriculture meetings are alleged to be the non-stop shit show, an every day crisis, and a way to demotion for the prime majority of cadres put on the agri committees, as most of them fail at the task.

Provincial level party executives all send their deputies instead of themselves to them as they fear demotion and penalties if they say something silly at those meetings.

Chinese bureaucracy does not deserve much credit there. Were that much of money be given to just anybody moderately competent, China would've long beaten even Holland on that.

Re: How is China able to provide enough food to feed over 1B people?

#50
post #41

This and watching HBO's Chernobyl have prompted me to ask: how do communist countries work? Is there something I can read or watch to best understand things like who owns these farms, who profits from them, how do they pay workers, how do you buy a house, etc It's all as foreign to me as medieval peasants and nobles so I don't know how it works from day to day. The fact that China now has billionaires, and billionair…

It was pretty simple in the USSR: the government owns the farms, the government profits from them, they pay the workers (very often in product). The government/party says a new farm will be created here, the order goes out. It is all controlled from the top (communist party) through the regional council, through the local council (often a few councils inbetween). After the farm is established, a few inspections by pa…

Wonder how this could change with modern technology and controls.
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